E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Productivity Commission report and early childhood educators, Instagram accounts and online safety, Help to Buy legislation, Middle East.
GREG JENNETT, HOST: Joining me is Labor MP, Member for Jagajaga and Assistant Minister Kate Thwaites, and Liberal MP and Member for Menzies Keith Wolahan. Both are joining us from Melbourne today. Welcome to you both. Why don't we start on childcare. It's very dear to your heart throughout your parliamentary career and perhaps before your parliamentary career, we will start with you Kate. A bit of a road map laid down by the Productivity Commission but it comes at substantial additional cost. At least $5 billion. How is that going to be funded?
KATE THWAITES, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SECURITY, AGEING AND WOMEN: As you say, a really important road map from the Productivity Commission, recognising what our Government has said and has been implementing for the past couple of years, which is that early education is so important not just for our youngest Australians, not just for the families who rely on it but for all of us in our community because we are setting young Australians up for the best possible future in life. In the Productivity Commission they have called out that it is particularly important for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to get access to childcare because they are the people who are going to benefit from it and of course our Government has been doing the work to build up a system, putting in place in particular pay rises for early childhood educators. I do get to see firsthand every day as I drop off and pick up my 3-year-old, just what impact these amazing educators have on our children's lives. The skills they are building in them. Our Government is already investing in this sector, we are already investing and making it more accessible and affordable for families. This gives us the road map for the next pieces of work.
HOST: What do you think, Keith? I'm sure it's not questioned as a worthy aspiration by anyone but is it attainable on current settings do you think?
KEITH WOLAHAN, MEMBER FOR MENZIES: I think the first thing to note is what a cherished institution the Productivity Commission is. It's important they've looked at this and of course it seems on first reading there is a cost that would grow from 12 to 17 billion but there is another side to the ledger which I am sure Kate would agree with which is that there is a productivity boost to the economy when more families are free to go out to work which is what would happen. We know that would happen. Can I say this, it's also relevant to cost of living. Many families particularly in metropolitan areas where Kate and I are based, they get to the end of the week and a key line item for families on balancing their budget is childcare. Some families are more fortunate than others, either in their means or they have other wider family that help but I think for those that don’t, this is a key part of their budget so we will look closely at the recommendations and where we can be constructive and act in the interest of families we will.
HOST: Keith obviously sees some merit. Could I take you back to the participation spin-off that comes up here Kate. We're talking about a 37% increase in the subsidy cost to government. What you actually get from that is only, and I don't use that word critically, only a 10% lift in attendance by children. I'm wondering if that is the best and most direct way to target participation by women in the workforce. Why don't those numbers are square up a little more?
THWAITES: I haven't had the chance to go through the numbers in the report in detail but what I would say is that what we know is that there is a productivity payoff from women in particular being able to access affordable quality childcare so that they can work and I'm getting a little distracted in this interview because right now my 3-year old is running outside in the corridor because he was too sick for daycare today. Again, this is absolutely something that I live to a degree. There is a payoff there but the other point in terms of that long-term investment piece, and again I think that is where there has been a real shift in attitudes here is that this is early childhood education. It is setting our kids up for the best possible future and that sets our community up for the best possible future. These are our workers of the future. It is not just babysitting as I think some of the Liberal Party room still refer to it as. It is actually an education and we know now that getting to children when they are in those first years with a quality early education is so important for setting them up so that is the other economic benefit to us all that comes from investing in the sector.
HOST: It looks like a bit of a watch this space on policy development between now and the election. Thanks for pointing out the broader team Thwaites there. We will invite cameos if necessary Kate, we understand your predicament. We have all been there. Keith, I'm going to kick you off on Instagram, a Meta platform moving to restrict teen account access, and least in hours and content viewed here in Australia, in UK, the US and Canada. Is it worth pressing the pause button now on the age ban legislation that basically the Coalition and the Government both agree with in principle just to see if this works?
WOLAHAN: I think we can chew gum and walk at the same time. I do support the age ban for those under 16. I think that is a sensible measure and there is enough science and data to support the benefits of that but I also on the other hand welcome the development by Meta and this shows that where legislators put pressure In important areas that it is about protecting children, and I think there is often a corresponding response. Let's wait and see. My children are probably a little bit older than Kate’s but they are not quite teens. They are on the cusp so I have some experience with this. My daughter has tried a Facebook Messenger for kids and the truth is as a parent even if you have access you don't have the time to look at it and there were occasions where I saw her mood change and I then ended up having to chat to my wife and we decided that wasn't in her interests. Let's not pretend this is a silver bullet that will fix all of the downside that come with social media use for minors.
HOST: Fair point, it only one platform as well, it doesn't encompass TikTok or any of the other really popular ones, Snap and the rest of it. Kate where does that leave us with this charge headlong towards the ban or at least that the legislation for it by the end of this year?
THWAITES: Any move towards safety online is important. I’ve got to say I am sceptical about big tech taking this issue seriously. I hope they are but to date we have not seen too much responsibility being taken by these platforms for the harms that are being caused to children from them and the way that children interact with them. So hopefully this is a good thing, but I certainly don't think it replaces action from government. I don't think it replaces government putting responsibilities onto those platforms, and it doesn't replace us needing to put in place, as we've said, legislation for a social media ban for young people before the Parliament by the end of the year.
HOST: To Kate's point there, Keith, it does rather demonstrate, doesn't it, that these companies or platforms have the technology and have had the technology at their disposal for quite some time to do the things that Insta are talking about, restricting access after a certain time at night, not pushing notifications to users in the wee small hours and then otherwise filtering content. It's obviously doable right.
WOLAHAN: Well, it is. And there was a harrowing story recently in the media about a young girl and some of the content about self-harm that kept coming up on her screen. And I think we know that the technology exists to stop that sort of reinforcement in terms of facial identity and whether people have to give their passports. I think there's some genuine nervousness about that, but I'm informed that the technology exists now to make sure it can be done without people having to risk giving up their identification, which could be used for fraud.
HOST: Yeah, and that's the trial, I guess, that the government's just embarking on now, and which will inform the age limits on the bill when it comes forward. All right. Let's move on to housing. You're both well away and you're probably thinking, thankfully, from the Senate and Canberra this week where there's been a real standoff. And I guess, Kate, it's fair to say that the Government's housing agenda has been mightily frustrated by the Coalition and the Greens. If this policy on Help to Buy is so good, does the government, will the government or should the government commit to taking it around again at the next election?
THWAITES: What we've got at the moment Greg, is the Greens and the Liberals working together to stop 40,000 low and middle income Australians from buying their own home. I just cannot understand the logic of this. Legislation has been before the Parliament for a long time now. I've got to say, I'm not surprised that the Liberals are saying no. That is pretty much par for the course for them at the moment. But the Greens keep telling us they want to support low income Australians into housing. Here is their opportunity to get on board and support this bill and they will not do it.
HOST: All right. Well Keith I know you're not obviously privy to the Senate tactical games that are at play. Certainly there have been this week. Why not just put this bill down on the vote? I mean, you've signed up to that but can't actually bring the Coalition colleagues to doing that. Why not?
WOLAHAN: Increasing home ownership is in the Liberal Party DNA. In fact Robert Menzies the founder of the party turned his mind to that as a top order issue during World War II when we had a lot of other things on our mind. It is central to who we are as a nation. If this actually made a difference we would support it but it's a bad deal that is just not even touching the edges. Not even touching the edges and it's not about people owning their own home it's about the Prime Minister having a seat at the table with the Government as co-owner of their house. That's not solving homeownership and that's not the homeownership that Australians value dearly. Of course we won't support about Bill and we would encourage the government to bring a better bill forward.
HOST: I've heard that argument put before but it's not compulsion or coercion we are talking about here. Anyone keen who entered into the equity sharing arrangement with the Commonwealth would be doing so by their own free will wouldn’t they?
WOLAHAN: It is a massive signal that we're giving up on the issue. We should never give up on the aspiration of Australians to own their own home. I've been out doorknocking in my electorate and I'm sure Kate does in hers as well. And next to cost of living, housing gets brought up again and not one person has told me that this is a bill that they're happy about or that they wish we would pass. No one has raised it with me.
HOST: All right, Kate, final word on that. I know what you're going to tell us, that it's strongly supported in your anecdotal evidence, but I wonder just how well aware people are of it. It's not like the Government has promoted it heavily since the last election.
THWAITES: I have to fundamentally disagree with Keith on where I think Australian people are on wanting the Government to be involved in fixing the housing crisis in this country. And let's be honest, it is a housing crisis that we have because for nearly a decade, the Liberal National governments we had federally wash their hands of housing. They did not invest in community and social housing as our Government is. They did not invest in supporting first home buyers, low and middle income home buyers, as this scheme is designed to do into home ownership. So our Government is bringing the type of national leadership and national focus to this that we have not had for nearly a decade under the Liberals. All they are continuing to do is to say no. And as I said, I have come to expect that from the Liberals in this Parliament. I am very disappointed in the Greens, who I think try and position themselves as the party who does care about the housing crisis, who does care about helping lower income Australians into the stability and security of owning their own home. And they are blocking this bill. It is not good enough.
HOST: Yeah, well, the one conclusion we can draw is that this is going to be a major hot button issue up to and through the next federal campaign. Look, I might just get some final thoughts from you, and I'll start this one out with you, Keith, on this incredible story of infiltration, killing and maiming in the Middle East with the exploding paging devices. The whole world is talking about it, of course, but was it proportionate and justified? Or perhaps overly provocative in your estimation, Keith? Because it's certainly going to lead to retaliation, isn't it?
WOLAHAN: I don't think it would be responsible for members of the Australian Parliament so soon after this has been reported to give that sort of commentary. But as a general principle, can I say that we are entering a new age of warfare where technology is not being used only on a massive scale, but also on precision attacks as well. And, we should closely analyse that, not just for the current conflict that's underway, but for how we conduct ourselves as well as the military going forward. This is a new age of warfare. It's not one that I was exposed to when I served. And we should watch it closely.
HOST: It's that interface between technology, ethics and morality, I suppose. Kate you'd have been as shocked as anyone by these amazing stories coming from Lebanon do you have any thoughts on its proportionality and justification as a method of damaging Hezbollah?
THWAITES: Of course shocked by continued loss of life in the region and really saying that we do not want to see escalation in the region, we want to see de-escalation, so my focus would be around urging all the parties involved to think about how we de-escalate this conflict, how do we get to a position where people are once again safe in the region which at the moment they are not.
HOST: Watch this space on that we could certainly anticipate some form of retaliation, goodness knows on what scale or when. We'll wrap it up there. Thanking you and the household, Kate Thwaites for everyone remaining very well behaved through our conversation. Keith, always good to have with us. We'll say farewell there.