E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: October 7 anniversary; protest laws; NDIS Section 10 lists
ALI MOORE, HOST: Right now, though, if you rely on support under the NDIS, how big a difference will recent changes make to what the Scheme funds for you? And do you have a question about whether supports are in or out of the new funding rules? Give me a call, 1300222774. Bill Shorten is the Minister for the NDIS and he's here in the studio and happy to take your questions. Bill Shorten, welcome.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Great to be on your show, Ali.
MOORE: We will get to NDIS in just a quick tick. Can I ask you first though about the issue of protests and vigils? Do you think everyone has got a right to mark Monday, October the 7th, the one-year anniversary, as they see fit?
SHORTEN: Hmmm. I think what's happening in the Middle East is an unmitigated tragedy and disaster. And I can understand people of Palestinian heritage or Lebanese or Jewish heritage feeling particular pain. But just - you don't have to have that heritage to be upset and feel the pain - but October the 7th is the one year anniversary when Hamas terrorists are smashed into Israel and killed, murdered, 1200 people, many of them young people at a concert, committed a shocking sexual atrocities, it took hostages. So, I can understand that for that day, why people of Jewish heritage will feel particular pain. And if you're trying to talk about your own sense of pain from a different perspective, I reckon on that day I'd give it a break and, you know, come back again on the 8th. And no one's saying people shouldn't have the right to protest.
MOORE: But what about a vigil and a silent procession, which is what is being planned here in Melbourne?
SHORTEN: Well, I think I've answered what I think, is the case.
MOORE: Doesn't matter what it is?
SHORTEN: Well, I don't know what it will be. But October the 7th was a particular day last year where a whole lot of innocent Israelis were murdered. And it was an act of terror. And I'm not sure who you persuade about your cause by trying to not deal with that fact or overlook that fact. That doesn't mean the rest of the history should be overlooked. Of course not. But on that day, yeah, I -
MOORE: Are we big enough as a democracy, though, for everyone to be able to choose as long as it's respectful, to commemorate, to mark, to remember?
SHORTEN: Yeah. Well, I don't know how you think this debate's been going, but I don't - I haven't seen great acts of bigness in some of the extremes. So… I’m not convinced.
MOORE: One other question on this. Of course, we've seen this court action from police in New South Wales, which there have been, and I think there has been a change in New South Wales. They'll no longer be any activity on Monday the 7th. But the reason the police can go to the courts is because you need a permit to protest in New South Wales. We don't in Victoria. Do you think we should?
SHORTEN: No, I haven't got a formed view on that. I do think Australians should have freedom of assembly and the right to protest. New South Wales laws are made by the state government there. The protests and assembly laws in Victoria are made by the Vic government. I don't have a firm view about whether or not we should copy the New South Wales laws.
MOORE: Let's turn to the NDIS. There are significant changes that have been made. There's a lot of information on the NDIS website. You did announce the specifics on Tuesday. They come into force from today. Is it long enough for people to make the necessary adjustments? I mean, everyone has known change is coming. Some of it, of course, is really, really obvious. Some of it may be more nuanced.
SHORTEN: I think most people, be they on the Scheme, be they service providers or just ordinary taxpayers, would say, what do you mean there's never been a central list before? This list that we've put out reflects a tremendous amount of consultation. These lists reflect, in many cases, the status quo. We got 7000 submissions handled by Department of Social Services, so there's been pretty intense consultation. The other thing is there's a 12-month transition period.
MOORE: So, is that the grace period that if something gets spent on something that actually it shouldn't be?
SHORTEN: Well, not exactly, because there are some things you shouldn't be spending money on now, like, uh, illicit substances, drugs, alcohol. So, there's no grace period for that. If you're a service provider, you know that you shouldn't be booking holidays for people. So, asking for a grace period for that, I don't see that's the case. But there can be mistakes. There can be things. So, if there's a service which is already in someone's plan, that will stay until the expiry of that plan. So that's a grace period.
If the amount of money is less than $1,500, we're going to try education first rather than just issuing debts. There's 1800 hundred number. It's one 1800800110. Um, I checked as of 2:00pm today. There had been 105 phone calls. There's 661,000 people on the Scheme for most participants, nothing's going to change. The fact of the matter is that about 73 to 75% of the Scheme goes in wages for disability care workers. Another 11% of that $41.4 billion goes in allied health professionals. So, some of the therapies which get the headlines are actually very much at the margins. What the one central list of in and outs reflects is the experience of the last decade. So yeah, there has been time. And if there is something which has been put in the out list which stacks up and should be in, there'll be - there's three avenues. There'll be an evidentiary committee so you can make a submission to that. As the minister, I've got 12 months to review any of the out list decisions. So, if there are inadvertent consequences or stuff which hasn't been thought through, the Minister can make a regulation. There's also the capacity, when we at the end of 12 months, to review how they've gone to convince the states and the federal government. So, this is the direction, it is good to have it in black and white. But if there's something inadvertent or really there is a lot more evidence than was initially thought for the therapy, the door is open to convince people.
MOORE: 1300 302 774 is the number. Bill Shorten is the Minister for the NDIS and happy to take your questions around what is being funded and what is not. Andrew has joined us from Boronia. Hi, Andrew.
CALLER: Hi. Good day. How are you going?
MOORE: Good. What did you want to say?
CALLER: Uh, I have two questions. So, first of all, my wife is a service provider, and my daughter is an OT. And corruption on those two fronts I'd like to talk about. First of all, OT perspective, my daughter said, there's a lot of things go in that are underneath the audit limit, such as like a walking frame or a bed mattress, things like that. But something that should be a few hundred dollars goes in at, I think it's about $2000 might be the cut off. And so, the providers of these products know the audit level, and they bump the prices of these up to as high as they possibly can without flagging it. The second one is my wife works through an agency for NDIS, driving people around, things like that. And sometimes it might be something like pick up a piece of furniture or can you do a road trip with me? Things like that. If she provides that sort of service and then, um, later it's found out that that is no longer covered, who is shortchanged on that? Is that up to the Agency? The person who put the job up?
MOORE: Yeah Andrew, I think you've made, you've asked the question. Let's put it to Bill Shorten.
SHORTEN: Okay. There are two points there. In terms of price gouging, which was the first point, I agree that's been a problem. That's why we've tripled the number of people at the Complaints Authority from 367 to 1052, and we've upgraded their software so we can detect the price gouging. We've also made it illegal to charge an NDIS participant more for an identical service than to someone who's not on the NDIS. So, we're we are tackling that.
MOORE: So, if they're not meeting market rate, there's a penalty.
SHORTEN: Well, say you're a physio and you have a cancellation fee. You know, you've been for a long 10K run Ali, and you've just you know you've your hamstrings need a bit of a massage or whatever. If you then cancel, you might get charged nothing or a 20% cancellation. But if the physio then, if someone who gives the same notice you gave is on the NDIS, and you get charged a 90% cancellation, that's crap.
MOORE: Sure.
SHORTEN: So, what I think Andrew is describing is that, you know, no good deed goes unpunished. Some assistive technology was taking a long time to review, whether or not you'd fund it. So, you set a threshold, and below that threshold you give it the tick. And so, what's happened is miraculously, all items now are just sitting below the threshold. So, we are reviewing that. So, we're on to that problem. Thank you. In terms of, if you provide a service which is subsequently found not to be an eligible service, there'll be a range of circumstances. Before we change the Act, if a person who's got maybe a psychosocial disability just doesn't understand the service that they've ordered, we were not allowed to take into account their disability, we now can. So, we will judge it on the circumstances, Andrew. But there's a clear easy read guide. I encourage all service providers to go and have a look at what's allowed and now, and the beauty of doing this all-in-one place is, you know, people can see what goes on.
MOORE: One of the questions that I had; I think actually Sally in South Melbourne might have a similar question. Sally. Hello.
CALLER: Hi there.
MOORE: What's your question?
CALLER: My question is a fundamental one around discrimination. I was wondering if Mr. Shorten could explain if he agrees that psychosocial disability is a legitimate disability and should have access to plans on the NDIS like everyone else with disabilities, not to be diverted to an early intervention pathway which is actually designed for children. Same thing goes for adults with autism. These invisible disabilities are real disabilities, and they shouldn't be discriminated against and going on to some alternative pathway.
MOORE: So, Minister, how do psychosocial -
SHORTEN: Oh, I think I understand Sally's point. To begin with, there's over 60,000 people on the Scheme who have a psychosocial disability. So, you can get on the Scheme with that. What I think Sally's described - so it's just wrong to say people with psychosocial conditions are not eligible for the Scheme. They are. What some people have raised is concern that the review, which was again had like thousands of people contribute to it, we want to look at the best early intervention measures, not just for kids but for people with psychosocial conditions. And that's been seen, the recovery approach, has been seen to be effective. But people psychosocial conditions will still be able to access the Scheme. And to those keyboard warriors out there scaring the buggery out of people saying that they're not, stop it. You are just causing anxiety.
MOORE: More of your calls for Bill Shorten, 1300 22 774. We'll just pause and have a quick look at the traffic.
MOORE: And you're also with the Minister for the NDIS, Bill Shorten, taking your questions after the changes to what is in and what is out of NDIS funding 1300 222 774 is the number. Minister, can I just briefly ask you about the issue of mental health services and treatment? One of the things that you cannot spend NDIS money on is treating a mental health problem, hospital mental health services. I assume that is in cases where mental health is not categorised as a person's disability. Is that correct?
SHORTEN: Yeah, What we've done, the Act has always had the proposition that the NDIS isn't the surrogate health care system in Australia. What the NDIS does is provide personal budgets for people with severe and profound disability, which might include a psychosocial disorder. What we're spelling out in the in and out list for NDIS is not that mental health shouldn't get treated, but we have Medicare, and we are going to build foundational supports. So, people's circumstances are individual, and they could have a spectrum of needs and circumstances. For eligibility for the Scheme, we've got to design new needs assessment tools that'll take 12 to 18 months. As I said in an earlier question, psychosocial conditions, you can be eligible for the Scheme. But what we've also got to do, and this is the I think one of the underlying stories of our care system in Australia is, when we were setting up the NDIS and when successive governments were setting it up, states and the feds bundled a lot of their services to bulk up to make their contribution for the NDIS. And I think some really good community mental health programs disappeared. So, if you're like, there's people who've got mental health challenges who don't need the full orchestra of the NDIS, but at the moment it's either hospital or nothing.
MOORE: But haven't you just sort of said the problem? And that is at the moment, and you've just said it's going to take 12 to 18 months to get these other services up and running. So, what will happen to people in the interim? There seems to be they still, they'll fall through a crack.
SHORTEN: Well, they've been falling through that crack for a long time. And the NDIS isn't to replace all the other systems in Australia, otherwise it'll break. So that problem already existed. It still exists. But now, for the first time, we've been able to engage with the states at the National Cabinet. The Prime Minister, the First Ministers, to set up a key proposition of the review is that to avoid the problem of the NDIS becoming the only lifeboat in the ocean, we need to rebuild how we deliver community mental health services. And I've met with the Community Mental Health Council, and I think everyone recognises that mental health, distinct from NDIS services, needs greater investment.
MOORE: Quick question on the text. Is equine therapy in or out?
SHORTEN: If you currently have it in a plan, it remains in. That's one which is going to go to the evidentiary committee. I've seen some good examples of it working. I'll be honest, not everyone in NDIS world is convinced, it will go to the evidentiary committee. I wouldn't say that it's a goner. It's certainly still in people's plans, and I have seen where it works. But I'm going to get experts rather than politicians to listen to people. So, we've got a bit of time to work that through in the next few months.
MOORE: Susan's in Port Fairy. Hi, Susan.
CALLER: Hi, there.
MOORE: What's your question?
CALLER: Um, well, firstly, just a bit of preamble. Thanks, Mr. Shorten, for following all these things up, I think we all recognise that the NDIS is such an important Scheme, and we really want to see it be one that's sustainable. I just wanted to pick up on your comments and some of the other commentary around - I'm an occupational therapist - around some health professionals price gouging and not doing the right thing. I guess I would just like to counter that with, you know, there are many health professionals who are acting in a very authentic manner. And what I find myself doing a lot in recent weeks is reassuring my clients who have legitimate disabilities that if they're receiving services that are, you know, appropriately delivered and properly measured and reported upon, then we really don't need to worry too much more, because I think you picked up on the point before that some people are probably being made anxious unnecessarily. Um, so that's just my little intro.
MOORE: Do you have a question, Susan?
CALLER: Sorry, sorry. My main question, Mr. Shorten, is in the past, pre-NDIS, there were a lot of systems in place to issue equipment and reissue. And that doesn't seem to happen now with the NDIS. I see lots of examples of equipment that's no longer needed by participants, and it just is unused. Yep. And I think we could save ourselves a lot of money by having a system where we could put those things back into the system and have people use them.
MOORE: Yep. No, Susan, it makes sense, doesn't it, Minister?
SHORTEN: Yes Susan, you made two points. I just want to thank you and all the allied health professionals. Some people get very cranky at me in the allied health professional space when we talk about the problems and they say, are you you're besmirching the whole profession. I'm not besmirching the whole profession. There is some price gouging going on, but most speech pathologists, psychologists, physios, OTs, you do amazing work and so it's great. So just, when you're telling the truth about a Scheme, it's a very fine line between offending someone or just pretending that there's no problems at all. But thank you for what you said in terms of the recycling of AT. Yes, we spend about 1.3% of the Scheme on assistive technology. So, but that is a billion bucks plus there isn't enough being done to recycle it. So, we started a couple of trial projects with a couple of large service providers to see how we can be better at recycling and reusing the AT, so we're onto it. But I think that's a really good area for a next term government to do more. But we've set some funding up to try and recycle and reuse it because it's a crazy waste.
MOORE: I've got a question from Geraldine here on the text. Why aren't assessments for autism covered under the NDIS when it's prohibitively expensive for people already on psychosocial plans who are often unable to work?
SHORTEN: In terms of assessments for the Scheme, we're currently weighing up how we would pay for the needs assessment. I think it is very expensive, and I think one of the defects in the Scheme, which I'd noticed since I became the Minister, is the exorbitant report writing costs and it also ties up professionals who'd rather be doing treatment than writing reports. So, it's an open question about how we fund assessments going forward. I have a view that the government should assist with some of that for the NDIS in particular.
MOORE: You're listening to Bill Shorten. He's the Minister for the NDIS, here to take your questions. Chris is in Pakenham. Hi, Chris.
CALLER: Hi, how are you going? Bill, I've finally got approved for, um, an NDIS plan, um, in February, and it took me nearly 12 months to get that far. I've now got an NDIS number, and I've been waiting since February to - I ring every couple of weeks to try and find out when I can go in, and they can make up my plan for me. I have Parkinson's, which is, you know, it's progressive and incurable and my neighbours, I've just been out doing the lawn again, shaking and trying to do it with one arm and, and -
MOORE: So, Chris, the question is about timing, about wait times.
CALLER: Well, I don't need a horse to run around on or anything like that or, you know, anything exorbitant. I just need a bit of occupational therapy and somebody to come and help me do my lawn.
MOORE: Yep. Let's put that to the Minister.
SHORTEN: The Scheme was absolutely designed for people with progressive neurological conditions, including Parkinson's. 661,000 people are now on the Scheme, ten years ago, no one was on the Scheme. So, I'm pleased that you've got a number. We'll get your details offline, and I'll find out why there's been a delay. I know generally that once we said we were going to reform the Scheme, we got belted by thousands of extra claims and variations. We've got to treat every communication as serious. Some of them were meritorious, but some of them were just the last gasp of some dodgy providers just trying to squeeze a bit more out of the lemon. So, it's meant that legitimate people have got held up along with illegitimate claims, because we've got to treat all of them as serious. But Chris, if I can get your details straight away, I promise you we will get you some specific answers as soon as I can.
MOORE: Very good. Dan's in Knoxville. Hi, Dan.
CALLER: Oh, hi. Hi, Bill. I just wanted to really raise the issue, look, I work in the chronic, you know, crisis sector of the mental health system. I work with a lot of people, you know, in the public mental health system, and we just do not know what we're going to do with people who have immediate crisis. And we need to send them on to some reliable and longer term supports. And we just do not understand, none of us understand what it means in terms of these foundational supports, like what does it mean, what does it look like? And what is the long term? Because we are dealing with people who are in chronic, chronic -
MOORE: Yeah. Dan, let me put that to the Minister.
SHORTEN: Yeah. Dan, first of all, thanks for what you do. Okay. I mean that. In an earlier answer, I said, I think that one of the gaps we've still got across Australia is in community mental health. The ten Medicare visits are good for some people. If you can get on to the NDIS because it's so serious, it's bad, it's so serious. But that's good. But there's a lot of people stuck in the middle. I actually think there's a potential for breakthrough, that is the foundational supports to help provide not just supports for kids, but supports in the mental health space. The first hopeful foundational supports that we'll see, the first priority, is kids. But we'll see that hopefully flowing from July of 2025. We've got to work with the states. They're a big, legitimate players in it. I think we're moving in the right direction, Chris, but - I'm sorry, Dan, but yeah, I, I'm not going to pretend to you. I think that there's immediate relief, even though it's a shocking problem right now.
MOORE: And in fact, just to sort of back that up, we had Judge John Kane, who's a state coroner in Victoria, speaking to Raf this morning with the latest statistics on fatal overdoses. And if you listen to what he says, it really is a problem that people cannot access addiction programs. And when you can't get the help you need, when you need it, you die waiting. You literally die waiting.
SHORTEN: I get that. I know the coroner very well. I know people hate this in a sense, but I'm not the Health Minister of Victoria or nationally. What I'm trying to do is get the NDIS working sustainably, giving quality outcomes to people. As a result, if we can slow down the growth rate but it still grows, it frees up funds to start moving into the space of early interventions, which is what I think Dan's asking. So, it is all connected, but I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. I think mental health policy in this country, there's been Royal Commissions. It's still unsatisfactory, the overall approach by all of us.
MOORE: Minister, we appreciate you being generous with your time and hope that we can do it again before you actually leave.
SHORTEN: Absolutely. I love talking about the NDIS, but more importantly, hearing what's going on, on the ground. Thank you.
MOORE: Bill Shorten there, Minister for the NDIS.