E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Retiring from politics; future of the NDIS
RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Bill Shorten's been the Labor MP for the seat of Maribyrnong since 2007. He is leaving politics. He will go to be the Vice Chancellor at Canberra University in February next year. That most likely means there will not need to be a separate byelection. We are due a federal election by May next year, so there'd be a gap there of, you know, two, three, four months. Bill Shorten is also, of course, Minister for the NDIS and Government Services. Bill Shorten, good morning.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good morning Raf.
EPSTEIN: Were your policies too bold do you think in 2019?
SHORTEN: Well, they clearly didn't convince 51% of the population. So that was the verdict. I'm proud that we had strong policies. I accept, though, that some of them were weaponised and used against us. So, I'd rather have won the election than lost
EPSTEIN: Weaponised is not too bold, though, is it?
SHORTEN: Well, I guess the issue, though, is that if you leave policies which others can start to manipulate, then you've got to look at your design. So, listen, I took responsibility for the loss then. I mean, there were external factors, but also, I took responsibility, I take responsibility. What's been so great is that Anthony and the team took our position in 2019, which was 68 seats, and we formed a majority in the next election. I'm pleased that quite a lot of the themes that we were talking about between 2013 and 2019 are now being enacted. You've got to be in government to do it. But I remember talking about the need for more apprenticeships, the need to take action on climate. I'm pleased even - remember Scott Morrison sort of lampooned me for saying we should have electric charging stations, and the electric vehicles were going to become a big part of the future? I was probably one election too early on that policy. And, you know, I guess one of the ironies, of course, in opposition is that we sometimes just one from opposition, the Banking Royal Commission and defeating the 2014 budget. So, listen, I've been very lucky and I'm very grateful to the people of the northwest and to Australians generally. And, you know, there is a debt there which I can never repay.
EPSTEIN: Is the PM bold enough?
SHORTEN: Sure.
EPSTEIN: A lot of Labor people don't think he is.
SHORTEN: Oh, well, you know, put them on the radio, talk to them. But this is one Labor person who thinks he is. You know, I think what we did when we redesigned Scott Morrison's top end tax cuts for the very well off and instead made sure that all 13.6 million Australians got a tax cut, I think that was right in the sweet spot. I think the fact that he and we have not shied away from saying that increasing the wages of the low paid is not inflationary. In fact, it's just a good thing to make sure our early childhood educators like the ones I know at Newmarket, or the aged care workers who work in East Keilor, or disability carers who work in Essendon or Moonee Ponds, that we've lifted the wages of the low paid. I think that's core business. Setting up the urgent care clinics, one of which is being announced in Maribyrnong at Edgewater today.
EPSTEIN: We spoke about them yesterday.
SHORTEN: Yeah, great.
EPSTEIN: Are you okay with never getting to be Prime Minister?
SHORTEN: Yes. I was disappointed after 2019 –
EPSTEIN: That’s a very calm yes. I didn't expect such a calm yes.
SHORTEN: Well, it's because it's the truth. Very few people in life get the chance to have an ambition or an idea or a vision and actually have a crack at it. For everyone who wins a grand final, there's a team that doesn't. And I know where my family came from. You know, the first of my ancestors were convicts. I had one ancestor as a digger at Eureka and others killed in World War 2. Like, my family - mum and dad grew up in the depression or at the end of the depression. It's quite remarkable. And I know I've had the chance to serve in the Commonwealth of Australia, in the Parliament, and I've had the chance to try and make a difference to people's lives. You know, it's a silver lining after 2019, but if we hadn't had 2019, then I don't know if a class action, I'd have been able to do the class action on Robodebt. I met some amazing people there, and as a result of winning in 2022, I've had a chance to reconnect with all the people in the world of disability, and that's fantastic.
And we are doing real things, and we are completing our first term agenda to make sure the NDIS is true to original purpose. We’re getting rid of the scammers, and we make sure it's sustainable. So, you can worry about what you don't have, or you can get on with the opportunities you do have. Very few people get the privilege of serving in Parliament, even fewer get the privilege to lead. Very few get the chance to be the Cabinet Minister for Services Australia, or for Centrelink, or for education or, you know, because I was in Parliament, I was able to help with the bushfire reconstruction after Black Saturday, which was a dreadful, shocking, traumatic time. Because I've been in Parliament representing Maribyrnong. I've had the chance to see the men and women of the ADF in Kabul and Uruzgan in Iraq. I get to see what carers do. I get to see how, you know, the farmers of North Queensland are going. Like, it's pretty amazing. And even though there's been a lot of tough days, there's not a single day I would change.
I wish it hadn't been so hard on my family with travel, but we haven't invented the ability to, you know, it's not Star Trek where you can just teleport you. So, I realise I've been away on average, 130 nights a year for the last 17 years. That's longer than World War 2. So, that's a toll on the family, and they have to put up with it because of my desire to help people who are not my family. So anyway, you can tell I'm - you asked earlier. Am I at peace with it? Yeah, sure. I'd love to have won. And do I think I could have done a better job than Scotty? Yes, but we'll never know. And I've got the chance to do a lot of other stuff. And, you know, I'm genuinely stoked.
EPSTEIN: I will come to the other stuff in a moment. Bill Shorten is with you. He’s NDIS Minister until and part of cabinet until February. You're listening to 774. I want to get to calls soon on cruelty or reality, and I wanted to ask you about that Bill Shorten, Michelle Bullock yesterday saying interest rates are clearly going to stay high for a while. Some people are going to have to sell their homes. Is that cruel or just reality?
SHORTEN: It's both, isn't it? I hope that I hope it's not reality. I mean, Australians, we hang on to our houses and - I use this metaphor, it's a little clumsy so don't, you know if I upset people, I don't mean to. You know, the National Rifle Association of America have that sentence or something. You know, you're not going to take my hand, get out of my way. You’re not going get my guns. Well, that's how we feel about our mortgages. What Labor is trying to do is that - I mean, there's two paths to deal with high inflation. And when we came in in 2022, inflation had a six in front of it. Now we've got it down to a three in front of it. The reserve Bank has increased monetary policy, so the cost of mortgages, that is a disaster for a lot of people. I have no doubt there is massive financial stress with mortgages, it's just shockingly difficult.
I can reassure Australians that every Cabinet Minister sitting around the table is acutely aware of mortgage pressure stress. And therefore, there's two ways to handle it. We can slam the economy into a brick wall and head us into recession. And some economic commentators and parts of the Liberal Party probably say that's the way to do it. I think what we're doing is we're lowering inflation. That's unarguable. But we're also trying to provide support. Those tax cuts are real. The wage is real. I think about a disability support worker who we've over time might be, you know, doing a lot of overtime to get to it, but maybe 85,80 – I mean, maybe 80. Because of our changes, they're going to be getting an extra few thousand dollars both in tax relief and wage rises. I know that doesn't help every mortgage payment, but I'm just so aware of the cost of housing and mortgages and so I hope people can hang on.
EPSTEIN: I want to get to a few issues for your future. But you used the word disaster for some people.
SHORTEN: Yeah.
EPSTEIN: Is that also criticism of the bank or not?
SHORTEN: Oh, let's talk about whether or not we're allowed to talk about the Reserve Bank. They're independent. We can't pre-empt their decisions. But my definition of independence doesn't mean sycophancy. It doesn't mean that they're immune from criticism. But what it means is they're able to make their decisions regardless, and that's why we strongly support it.
EPSTEIN: I appreciate that I'm just trying to work out if it's criticism of the decision or just a description of the reality.
SHORTEN: It's a description of the reality.
EPSTEIN: Okay.
SHORTEN: But I for one, you know, I get the reserve Bank uses very sophisticated measures. The measures I have are through shoe leather on the streets of Puckle Street or Union Road or Keilor Road. And what I see is that are there more shops for rent, and you talk to parents at the school gate? Mortgage pressure. It's real.
EPSTEIN: So, they are going too far, the bank.
SHORTEN: I'd say the economy has slowed down. And my anecdotal analysis, as opposed to the more sophisticated, you know, Treasury modelling is, people are feeling the pain. If what we want to do is take inflationary pressure out of the system, that's happening.
EPSTEIN: Bill Shorten is with you at 14 minutes to 9. Just a few issues around yourself, Bill Shorten. There's a text here from Ged in Preston. Answer it however you like. Raf, please ask Bill Shorten if he regrets replacing Julia Gillard with Kevin Rudd at the last minute leading up to that election, one of the biggest political staff ups in recent history, in my opinion.
SHORTEN: Fair enough Ged. That's your opinion. I'm not going to be Labor's historian on everything that happened, but the reality is that I do think that in 2013, Kevin Rudd saved some seats which might have otherwise been lost. It was still a big defeat, and we had to rebuild from 55 seats, but I - anyway, the counterfactual, we'll never know. So, Ged is entitled to their opinion.
EPSTEIN: Okay.
SHORTEN: One thing, which was a stuff up in the 07 to 2013 era is the level of division. And since then, we were very united under me, and I knew that was the green fee we had to pay to be able to be credible in 2016. But beyond that um, under Anthony, we're also very, very united in government. So, all I can say to Ged is when the Labor Party is fighting each other, that's bad. When we're united, at least then the issues that matter, the people, are at the forefront.
EPSTEIN: Canberra University's chancellor is Lisa Paul. You hired Lisa Paul to co-author the NDIS Review. Did she lead the panel that gave you the job at Canberra Uni? And do you think that's okay?
SHORTEN: What? Like I understand - Lisa Paul's been the secretary of the Department of Education. She served with nine different Ministers, Liberal and Labor. When she and Bruce chaired the review, I don't even know if she'd been appointed Chancellor of UC. And furthermore, there was certainly no vacancy. So, you know, let's just chuck that little conspiracy theory.
EPSTEIN: So, no issues there?
SHORTEN: Yeah, just chuck that theory in Area 51,
EPSTEIN: [laughs] In area 51. Look, I don't want to ask, I don't want my final question to lead to, chew up all my time. But it's an important question. Is the NDIS going to be okay?
SHORTEN: Yep. When I first became Parliamentary Secretary for disabilities, I thought I'd seen disadvantage in workplaces. But nothing prepared me for the eye-opening lessons that people with disability in Australia were largely living lives of second-class exile amongst us. They had legal rights and there was a lot of good work being done, a lot of carers, a lot of people with disability, a lot of advocacy. But you can't have a legal right without economic agency. So, I and other people like Bruce Bonyhady and others, formed the view that if we could create a package of money, a personal budget, so that someone could have a fulfilling life and give them choice and control over it, that was going to be a game changer in Australia and around the world. By the time Labor got kicked out of office, we had set up four trial sites. Then we've come back nine years later. What I hadn't realised is the lack of attention which had been paid to this system. It's changing lives, hundreds of thousands of lives. It's great. But the back-office payment system, the scrutiny of invoices, the uncertainty and lack of clarity meant that people were having inconsistent experiences. Many would report feeling like treated like human ATMs. Others would complain that when they'd turn up for a service, once it was clear they were on the NDIS, the cost of the service would increase, even though it was identical to people not on it.
So, we've made heaps of changes. We've now got half the board of the Scheme; half the directors, are people with lived experience. We've changed the leadership of the NDIA, and two of the seven most senior people have lived experience. Rebecca Falkingham, the CEO, is just an outstanding leader, as is Kurt Fearnley, the Chair. We're also working hard to get people out of hospital, that is people medically fit for discharge on the NDIS, but being stuck in hospital because there was no plan for them. We've also tried to hit the backlog of cases in the AAT. We've been working on that. We've also done a root and branch review, which we promised and what that's done, and congratulations to the Victorian government too, and all the states, is it said that the NDIS was in danger of being the only lifeboat in the ocean, that as soon as someone thinks disability, they think, oh, that's an NDIS matter. Whereas the reality is for true inclusion, not everyone needs the NDIS, but they do need support. So, we're working on that. We're going to clarify what you can use your resources on. And we've been - I've set up a Fraud Fusion Task Force. It will appal people to hear this, but government agencies didn't talk to each other until I turned up. We've now got 21 agencies. We've now got $1 billion of funds under investigation. We've got service providers - and by the way, most service providers are great. But some, you know, we've got to tell the truth, are having a lend of the Scheme, overcharging, providing the wrong services.
And we've got people being in jail and headed to courts for ripping off people with disability and the taxpayer. And we will do co-design going forward in the future. So yes, I think we've set a new direction for it. There's things I'd still like to do, making sure that many of the service providers are registered so that we actually know who they are and improving the integrity of the Scheme. But working with the states, working with people with disability, the NDIS is just, and the new leadership, it's just a different proposition to two and a half years ago. Thank you for letting me get for all of that.
EPSTEIN: That's okay. You should clip it, stick it on Insta like it's not a bad two-minute summary. Thank you for your time. I'm sure we'll speak before you leave.
SHORTEN: You can count on it. Cheers.
EPSTEIN: Bill Shorten, the NDIS Minister. He's leaving politics at the start of next year to be Vice Chancellor at Canberra University