E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Former PM’s joint letter of condemnation of Hamas; potential international isolation of Israel
PETER STEFANOVIC, HOST: You're watching First Edition on this Tuesday morning, folks. Well, all living former Australian Prime Ministers besides Paul Keating have signed a statement condemning Hamas and joining us live now is Government Services Minister Bill Shorten in Canberra. Bill, good to see you. So, Paul Keating's call, at the end of the day here. And he has been consistent on this matter. But are you disappointed that he didn't sign the letter?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Oh, that's up to him. I think the letters are useful addition. It just shows a unity of purpose in Australia between the main parties, and that's a good thing. So, I think it's a useful contribution.
STEFANOVIC: It brought together Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull. So, does this show that Labor is and still remains divided on the issue of Israel and Palestine?
SHORTEN: No. How do you get to that conclusion?
STEFANOVIC: Well, I mean, you've got different frontbenchers saying different things when it comes to Israel and Palestine and claims especially of war crimes.
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, I think on the letter, Prime Minister Rudd and Prime Minister Gillard signed it. So, I don't know where you get the disagreement point. In terms of individual ministers, people -
STEFANOVIC: Well, disagreeing, other members of the Labor Party, have differing views when it comes to Israel-Palestine. That's my point.
SHORTEN: Oh, some of that happens in the Liberal Party. You'd be aware that at Canterbury, the local government area in Sydney, the Liberal councillors, along with the Labor councillors, took a position and the position that the local Liberal councillors took is different to some of their federal representatives. No, in terms of our cabinet, there is a high degree of agreement about the right of Israel to exist, the right to defend itself, and a shock and horror at what happened on October the 7th. But there's also agreement that there's a lot of dire hardship for Palestinian civilians, that they're the victims of Hamas as much as Israelis living on the border were, and that the call for a humanitarian pause to provide relief for Palestinians caught up in a situation not of their making, again supported by all the members of the government.
STEFANOVIC: Did you choke on your Weet-Bix when you saw that Tony Abbott praised Malcolm Turnbull?
SHORTEN: Oh, well, I know that they weren't friends when they were in Parliament. But, you know, sometimes issues are bigger than individuals, aren't they?
STEFANOVIC: They are. And just back to a point that you referred to just a moment ago, Penny Wong, she's got the view that Israel runs the risk of isolating itself from the global community. It's a claim that's been backed by the US, if the civilian death toll continues to climb, do you agree with her on that point?
SHORTEN: I think that Israel already has a hard job in the Middle East. Many of the countries around it don't recognize its right to exist. But Penny is making the point that Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself, but she also says that the way Israel defends itself matters.
STEFANOVIC: Yeah.
SHORTEN: I think there's a huge amount of sympathy after October the 7th for, you know, the shock and horror of the hostages taken, the people killed and murdered in their own homes by Hamas. But there's also a point where you've got to be mindful that there's the international rules of war, and that civilians everywhere shouldn't suffer because of the actions of a gangster government in Gaza. But it's very difficult. Look, no one - I don't think anyone watching this really thinks it's simple, but I think there is universal condemnation of Hamas and what they did on October the 7th.
STEFANOVIC: Sure. And like as a keen observer of, of foreign politics, do you believe, like Penny Wong had said, that Israel runs the risk of isolating itself if that civilian death toll keeps climbing too high?
SHORTEN: Well, I hope that the matter resolves before the civilian death toll goes too high. There's no doubt that world opinion, there’s quite a lot of people were sympathetic to Israel after October the 7th, but the hard fact is that democracies get judged by higher standards than dictatorships. So, it's important that the way in which Israel conducts its mission adheres to some international norms, although that's a lot easier to say from the comfort of a studio 14,000km away. The situation on the ground is very shocking and I feel for Israel whose, some of the neighbouring countries basically don't even think they should exist. So, I do think that Israel has to, to the extent it can, be mindful of the civilians in Palestine, they're not the enemy. They're not the enemy.
STEFANOVIC: Okay, Bill Shorten, we'll leave it there. Appreciate it though. We'll talk to you soon.