E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Ray Martin’s comments on the Voice; threats against Lidia Thorpe; lead up to the referendum; Disability Royal Commission findings; special schools
DEBRA KNIGHT, HOST: Now, Angus Taylor, unfortunately isn't able to join us today for Question Time. He's getting ready to launch his big charity fundraiser, The Pollie Pedal. But Bill Shorten is with us, the Minister for the NDIS, and there is lots to discuss with him with the fallout from the Disability Royal Commission, of course, and divisions about The Voice. Bill, welcome back.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Welcome. I'm flying solo. I don't have my wingman, Angus Taylor, but never mind. I'll try and put the pros and cons of each argument.
KNIGHT: I'm sure you'll manage. I'm sure you'll manage. Let's start with The Voice, because Ray Martin is copping a lot of criticism, calling no voters, dinosaurs, and dickheads. What are your thoughts on this? Is he overstepped the mark here?
SHORTEN: Oh, generally, I've found in a democracy you do better by trying to persuade people rather than tell them off. But Ray Martin's got his views, you know, that's him. To my way of thinking, the Voice is about just including our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in our modern Australian birth certificate and setting up a commitment to talk to them before we make laws which have specific impact on them. It's all it's pretty reasonable, frankly.
KNIGHT: Well, I think you're right. People do feel like they're under attack from both sides, both yes and no camp. And we are all entitled to our view. We live in a democracy, after all. That's right. But the Prime Minister has done the same thing, though he's been very pointed in his language about people who want to vote no. And a lot of people on the no side of things feel as though they're being attacked by people like the prime minister and Ray Martin.
SHORTEN: Well, no, I don't think the Prime Minister has been pointed in his language at all. I don't accept that he's engaged in that at all. In terms of - I think the No case has been pretty heavy. You know, they accuse those of us who wish to include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders on the nation's modern Australia's birth certificate as dividing the nation. Currently, if you're not on your birth certificate, you're the ones who are missing out. We're not dividing, we're uniting. But, you know, in a political argument, sometimes it gets heated. But I think the Prime Minister at all stages has been courteous.
KNIGHT: Yeah, but Ray Martin, though, he's overstepped it, I - you know, it doesn't help anyone by name calling.
SHORTEN: Name calling doesn't help as a general rule. And sometimes you fall into it, but you're generally catch - they say that they say you catch more bears with honey than a stick. I don't know. Anyway, I do think - that I mean, at least as politicians, I mean, everyone bags politicians, but we do understand that you've got to persuade people you can't just tell them off. And but, you know, in the media, sometimes you have the luxury of having strident opinion. It doesn't always translate into politics, does it?
KNIGHT: Well, that's true. Now, we've also had the threatening video against Senator Lidia Thorpe from this neo-Nazi, which the AFP is investigating. Ugly. And I know that you've been very strong in saying that that should not be tolerated. But how do we move past all of this, Bill, when we wake up on Sunday morning after October the 14th, regardless of the result? Because there is a lot of anger, there's a lot of division. And isn't it going to be amplified?
SHORTEN: No, I think the nation will come together. I mean, I'm focused on arguing the case that voting yes will be good, but Saturday of the referendum will come and go. And on Sunday we'll wake up and we will, the people, will have spoken. Now, I'm optimistic the people will speak to include first nations people in our Constitution and that we pay strong respect to our 65,000 years of ongoing connection between Aboriginal people, the land and modern Australia. But I know that this is why we have a referendum. The founding fathers did have the foresight to put in a mechanism to change the constitution. It's all being done legally. I'm very grateful to the AEC and Services Australia staff who'll be staffing all the polling booths and you know; we've had elections and referendums before the nation's got through it and we will get through this one too. I'm very confident about that.
KNIGHT: And there'll be a lot of poring over the tea leaves and looking at the various strategies of both sides to. Do you think that the Prime Minister got the strategy wrong here? Because he told the ABC this Week that he assumed that Peter Dutton would support the referendum because Julian Leeser had been appointed his Indigenous affairs spokesperson. And Julian Leeser of course a Yes supporter. Something so significant going off an assumption is a pretty big ask, isn't it?
SHORTEN: Well, I think the Prime Minister has been incredibly consistent to his views and what he said before the election.
KNIGHT: But surely, you'd go to the opposition leader and find out rather than assume?
SHORTEN: Well, I think if your opposition's lead spokesperson says they support it, it's not unreasonable to assume a degree of harmony in the in the ranks of the other party. In terms of what's right and what's wrong after the election, I'll leave the post-mortem until after the referendum. But I think the Prime Minister has been very forthright and very values driven. I mean, in the modern era, they say that politicians don't stand for anything. Well, clearly the Prime Minister has nailed his colours to the mast. And incidentally, I'm very supportive, completely supportive of the position. At least we're getting politicians who say what they actually think, and I think that has value.
KNIGHT: All right. I want to also talk to you about the Disability Royal Commission, because this time last Friday, you released that final report. How urgent is the need for change here?
SHORTEN: Well, the Royal Commission is a massive piece of work. Australia can do better with the way it treats people with disability. There were - this Royal Commission, I think I initially called for when I was leader of Labor in May, June of 2017. The Morrison government rolled it out at the end of 2018. It's gone for four and a half years. Nearly 10,000 individuals told their stories. It reveals a picture that people with disability have very inconsistent opportunities in this country of the fair go. The Royal Commission estimated that there's 400 avoidable deaths of people with disabilities in Australia annually, people over 20. It found that 55% of people with disability between 18 and 64 have experienced physical or sexual abuse. It's revealed, I think, some practices which we thought were banished to the waste bin of history are still happening in terms of inappropriate restrictive practices on people with challenging behaviours.
I also think, though, on a more positive note, it's given a long term plan on what the what the future should look like. So, some issues are urgent, some issues are longer term, and some are generational. It's 12 volumes. 2.5 million words, there’s a fair bit in it. My capable colleague, the Minister for Social Services, Amanda Rishworth, is coordinating the across government response. I've got particular responsibility for sorting out the NDIS and the Safeguards Commission.
KNIGHT: But. But is more urgent action needed though, than setting up a task force to work through this?
SHORTEN: That's what - I'm sorry, I was being a bit long winded, that's what I was coming to. I think the urgent stuff that I can contribute to, which is of interest to your listeners is the redesign of the National Disability Insurance Scheme and the Quality and Safeguards Commission, making sure that for the 600,000 participants on the NDIS, they have a more humane service which focuses on getting rid of the rorts and the inappropriate practices of some service providers and making - I mean people get intuitively for the NDIS is for people with pretty intense special needs. So, it's a complicated system because it's an individual package of support and it's being delivered at scale. But I think we need to make - the way we make it better is by making it more human in the way we deliver the service.
KNIGHT: Yeah, because that's the thing. There's no one size fits all to all of this. And that's also the case with another part of the recommendations where the commissioners were divided, the end to segregated schools, group homes and employment. I mean, it's a difficult issue and there's a real split from people who have disabilities as well as the commissioners. What are your thoughts? Should it be wound down altogether, or should people have a choice?
SHORTEN: I believe in choice, but I think part of the reason, and I just want to say to people, every person who's expressed a view has got a sort of legitimate piece of the puzzle. In other words, disability activists who say that they want young people with disability to have the opportunity to be included in mainstream education, that's a very fair point and that's a worthy goal. Then you've also got a lot of people who work incredibly hard in our special schools. You've got families, you've got - and I don't want the special schools to take from this somehow that they're bad or that they're the residual education system. I think the people who deliver services in special schools are amazing, and I understand that for some kids and some families, they see that as the safe place for them to be educated.
KNIGHT: So, will they stay, or will they be wound up?
SHORTEN: Well, the Royal Commission was split, and what they what half of the Royal Commission proposed is that in 30 years’ time. They should be shut. And the other half of the Royal Commission said no, in 30 years’ time they shouldn't.
KNIGHT: So, you've got to take those recommendations. What's going to be the result?
SHORTEN: Well, I won't be here in 30 years in politics, I suspect - I can definitively say that. Well, no, I like being here, thank you for your encouragement. What I think is that let's focus on the real issue here, which is how do we improve the schooling options in mainstream schools, both government, Catholic, non-gov. How do we fund that better? How do we also invest in our special needs education to make it able to be delivered in mainstream settings? And also, how do we properly resource our special schools?
For me, it's about educational opportunities for kids regardless of their impairment. And I'm not going to get a sort of black and white about where we are in 30 years. There are legitimate points of view. I think the best thing I can do as a current political representative is to work out how do we make sure that the money that the federal government puts into disability in the states, education, is getting through to the kids who need it? And how do we work with states and special needs educators, families, and kids to make sure not only that their school experience is good, but that we give them pathways in vocational education and secondary school which don't just send them all to long day care. Let's have a bigger picture of what people with disability can do than really put them in a pigeonhole of, you know, too hard, too slow. Just nothing can be done with them. Let's not waste people. That's where I think the value of the Royal Commission is. Let's prioritise their educational experience.
KNIGHT: Yeah, well, we know that more needs to be done. That is for sure. Bill, thanks so much for joining us.
SHORTEN: Yeah, lovely to chat.
[ENDS]