E&OE TRANSCRIPT
ALI MOORE, HOST: It’s a big day for the Royal Commission into Disability, which has spent the last four and a half years with submissions and stories and hearings, and has now produced a twelve volume report and 222 recommendations. The Federal Government has set up a task force to go through those recommendations. It's talking about a staged response. Bill Shorten is the Minister for the NDIS and Government Services. Bill Shorten. Welcome to drive.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Hi, Ali. How are you?
HOST: Good, thank you. 222 recommendations, twelve volumes. It's a really extensive report. A lot to work through.
SHORTEN: Yeah, Labor first called for the Royal Commission while I was Leader of the Opposition in May of 2017. When we first called for it. Both Malcolm Turnbull and Christian Porter, the Government, Prime Minister Attorney-General said there was no need. Scott Morrison eventually gave in. But now, four and a half years after the Royal Commission started, it's reported. Two and a half million words in the report. But it'll take a while to work through all the recommendations. First of all, though, I've got to acknowledge the 9000 plus people who gave evidence. And really, their stories are harrowing. But it does show that too often still in Australia, people with disability are neglected, exploited, abused, subject to violence and excluded. It came up with some shocking numbers that they estimate that for adults over 20 with disabilities, there are 400 avoidable deaths a year, that 55% of adults with disability will have experienced in their life, either physical or sexual abuse. So, we're doing some things okay in Australia, but it is too much of a lottery and the Royal Commission is a very important contribution. I'm very grateful for the work of the Commission.
HOST: We'll go through some of them in a minute, but there are very specific recommendations. But above and beyond that, there is also a need, isn't there, for an entire community change, a change of approach and a change of attitude.
SHORTEN: Exactly, Ali. When people listening to this, say oh is disability always a crisis? Or maybe just people with disability can't be helped, or maybe their carers are saints. We need to get rid of that logic. The reality is, disability could be any of us. It can be on the journey of a precious child, a non standard developmental journey. It could be in the blink of an eye on a country road this weekend. It could be getting badly injured in the surf. It could be just that DNA code, the unique genomic mix of all of us, which means that some of us will get disabilities earlier in life. So, it's any of us. It's universal. And until we make the decision as a country, that we just want to include people, regardless of their impairment, these commissions will keep producing these stories. So, it is all about all of us. Rethinking how we look at disability and impairment is just one feature of a person's personality, and we shouldn't let it define them.
HOST: We spoke earlier to Rhonda Galbally, who said that it was completely expected and acceptable, that there's a task force, there's a lot to go through and a lot to sort of sort out. But I guess where do your priorities lie? And if I start with one of the recommendations, which is to have a portfolio for disability, so a Minister for disability, do you see that in terms of particularly generating momentum? Do you see that as a priority?
SHORTEN: We're going to consider all recommendations. I think that recommendation is probably less important than the problem it's trying to solve, which is that we need people to be accountable for disability. At the moment, we've got the Minister for Social Services, Amanda Rishworth, she's doing a great job. She looks at disability generally in the community. You have me with the NDIS. That's people who are most profoundly disabled. We have another Minister, Tony Burke, who does employment. We've also got state governments. And I think the idea that there's going to be a magical politician who can fix everything probably underestimates people with disability and also underestimates the role of the rest of us. But the proposition behind having a Minister, I think, says we got to have accountability. Frankly, every Minister at any level of government, including mayors and councillors, should all be Ministers for disability, because disability is any of us.
HOST. So, does that mean that the priority is not so much the Ministerial position, but the disability commission, perhaps, which might be able to bring everyone together?
SHORTEN: Well, listen, whether or not it becomes the priority, it's going to be a whole of government response. But speaking personally and honestly, as someone who's campaigned on disability for 15 years plus, I think my priority is to make sure the NDIS works well, but that it can't be the only lifeboat in the ocean. In other words, without being too long winded, there's people with really serious disabilities, and that's for whom the NDIS is designed, and the NDIS is an inconsistent experience. Where it works, it changes lives, it's doing stuff which the rest of the world can only marvel at, but it is still inconsistent. There's bad actors in it, there's service providers ripping the system off, et cetera. But beyond that, there's people who have mild disabilities but still need support if you've got episodic mental illness or if you have a child with a developmental delay who needs just early intervention in the community. We need support programmes for people for milder disabilities, and that's the job of states and other departments federally, but also generally, and I don't want to use too many fancy words, but we need to look at a concept of universal design, and by that, the United Nations, Australia was one of the first countries in 2008 to sign up to the UN Charter for Rights of People with Disability. But what I mean by universal design is we've just got to accept that not everyone is the same. So, you have, when we build our buildings, why do we put lips on showers? And why do we have narrow doorways? When we teach courses at university, are we making sure that our curriculum, that the lecturers understand how to teach people of different learning capabilities? When we put up software programmes on websites including the ABC and Government and Centrelink, but also private sector companies, are they accessible? When we're buying new trams and trains, when we're opening restaurants, when we're opening hotels, are we making sure that people with disability can use them?
HOST: And I guess this goes back to building standards and building codes and requirements to get permits. And it also, I guess, Minister does go to one of the very specific recommendations we've discussed a bit, which is segregating education and removing segregated education and special schools by 2051. And we've spoken to the mother of a profoundly disabled child. How will that work? And one of the points that she was making was that why shut down the so called special schools? Why not open them up?
SHORTEN: Yeah, first of all, I've only just read the Royal Commission recommendation and it says this would take 28 years or a generation. I think there are pros and cons. Again, just giving a personal sort of perspective, I think some parents choose special schools because their kids get bullied and picked on and not sufficiently attended to in the mainstream system. Now, hats off to Natalie Hutchins and the state Labor government here in Victoria. They've just recently announced extra $1.8 billion for inclusive education. I think all the various levels of government have got to operate through and work through these recommendations. What I would describe the Royal Commission as, this is a painting of the horizon. It says this is the destination where we need to get to where everyone's included, and that just having an impairment doesn't mean you're treated as second class. But I would say to parents at special schools now, my gut is that the world doesn't change tomorrow a lot of time, you got to talk to people with disability. So, I can see pros and cons. That recommendation on education wasn't agreed to by all of the Royal Commissioners. They had differing views, even amongst the six of them, on that. I do think positively, though, parents shouldn't think, oh, my God, what does this mean tomorrow? Because that's not what it means at all. The Royal Commission, a majority of Royal Commissioners have offered a 28 year horizon. So, I don't think if you got a child at school now that you need to sort of get too no.
HOST: No, you don't need to worry about what's going to happen tomorrow. But I guess I've got a whole lot of texts of people just saying, Where will the money come from? It's not just a ramp, it's a hoist, it's a Auslan interpretation, it's a hydrotherapy pool. It's so much and it worries people.
SHORTEN: And that is why, when people say, why doesn't the government sign up to all these Royal Commission recommendations tomorrow? Because it's not that easy. This Royal Commission is the best efforts of a lot of people based on a lot of evidence, and they've disagreed a bit about what the best direction is. My aim and however I can contribute in public life, is to identify what's the positive, but not create more problems as you try and affect change. So, to those parents who are worried, I get it, it's not me, I'm not your Education Minister, but I don't have some sort of agenda to close. I couldn't close them anyway, but I don't have an agenda to shut schools. I think our collective agenda is to make sure that kids in the future get the best start possible, that's it what's the best interests of the child. And I think that's the lens. And I think this talk of segregation, I think it is to some extent calling out the fact that it's not enough to say kids with disabilities are too hard to teach. But you're quite right, you need resources in a classroom to teach kids. I think for me, it goes back to that sort of very basic truth of life education. There's not much more important that a parent or a society can do than educate our young.
HOST: So, Bill Shorten, you now, as a government, have to you set up this task force and you go through these recommendations. Will the task force involve state governments as well?
SHORTEN: It has to. I mean, this is a federal task force, but first of all, it has to involve people with disability. It's funny, isn't it? We're going through this whole debate about including First Nations people having a voice and the referendum and voting yes, because that's sensible. But people with disability also need to be consulted on matters that affect them. I'm sure that my colleague Amanda Rishworth and the government will make sure we hear from people with disability. But the states are key actors. The states are crucial. And sometimes I've probably been guilty of putting too much back on the states and saying, because of the NDIS, the states have sometimes vacated the field, and in some cases they have. They're also doing a fair bit, too. We've got to work with states, we've got to work with educators, got to work with the experts and with families as well.
HOST: And as you say, give people with disability a voice. I mean, it is notable that of the six commissioners who undertook this Royal Commission, two had lived experience.
SHORTEN: Yeah. And they were two who I've had the privilege of knowing, Rhonda Galbally for years. She was very influential in my thinking when I was campaigning to create the NDIS. So, that's good that they were involved there.
HOST: And she two out of six.
SHORTEN: Yeah. And what I've done on the board, this NDIS, this is the $35 billion programme, looking after 600,000 people with severe needs. I've now got a de-facto policy of 50/50. So, half the board are now people with disability.
HOST: Bill Shorten. We will wait with interest to see the work of that task force. But, of course, you are a Melbournian. I don't know. Are you back yet or are you still in Canberra?
SHORTEN: No, I've landed back in Melbourne. It's funny. I mean, it's not funny, but we all criticised in Adelaide, where we just announced the Royal Commission report. So, it's a public holiday in Melbourne. I said yes, but we've all had to go to Adelaide to prove that we're working. It's not a public holiday everywhere else, but I am barracking for the Magpies tomorrow.
HOST: Are you a Collingwood man?
SHORTEN: I am, and I'm incredibly excited.
HOST: Why are you a Collingwood man?
SHORTEN: Well, my uncle was a Collingwood man. My dad had always been a South Melbourne man, but then they went to um, so I've worked at Collingwood. I was a blue coat there. That's a funny job. I'll just say to everyone tomorrow, when you see the attendants working yeah, be nice to them. Be nice to them. I was at the Giants game and a lot of the attendants had high vis orange on. There were more attendants wearing orange than Giants supporters.
HOST: That's mean. Hey, have you got a footy superstition? Because your win rate, I think we worked out, was about 33, 34%, given your past grand finals.
SHORTEN: I'm disappointed we're not playing Carlton because Melbourne would have gone off. I think Brisbane is the other best team in the league, so it's 50/50, isn't it, really?
HOST: That's the best you can do as a Collingwood supporter?
SHORTEN: Well, of course I'm nervous. Oh, my God. I don't want us to lose. Anyway, my daughter's coming with me. This is the first grand final she's been to. It will be amazing.
HOST: It will be amazing.
SHORTEN: Weather's going to be cracking. Just Melbourne at its best indeed.
HOST: No matter who wins. Thank you so much for joining us.
SHORTEN: I don't quite agree with that.
HOST: Well, I just have to make everyone happy. Thanks for joining us and we hope that we can stay in touch with you about this task force as it does its work. Yeah.
SHORTEN: And we're bringing down the review on the NDIS towards the end of October, and so that'll, I think, fill some of that interim. We'd been working on reforming disability before the Royal Commission report today. And to my pleasant relief, a lot of what the Royal Commission says is going in the same directions that we're doing about the NDIS. So, you'll see action much quicker than I think people are expecting, certainly in the field of the NDIS.
HOST: Bill Shorten. thanks for your time.
SHORTEN: Thank you. Bye.
HOST: Bill Shorten, there, Minister for NDIS and Collingwood supporter.