E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SARAH ABO, HOST: Joining us to discuss today's headlines is Minister for Government Services and the NDIS, Bill Shorten and 4BC’s Neil Breen. Good morning to you both. Bill, this is an historic moment for the US. All eyes are watching Donald Trump.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Yeah, it's amazing footage and you know, at one level Australia doesn't comment about the legal investigations in America, but at a personal level, I think it's all in equal parts, both a tragedy and scary. I mean, it shows that in America, the institutions are hanging in there, no one's above the law - even ex-Presidents, and Mr. Trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence. But at another level, though, I think that it's really gravely concerning. It's a tragedy that this massive division is going on in America right before our eyes because the rest of the world needs a strong and united America.
ABO: I mean, in True Trump style Bill, he's really galvanized the base. He's absolutely weaponised this. There are detractors who say the justice system has been weaponised by the Democrats, but actually there's no one who sells a situation like this better than Trump, right?
SHORTEN: Yeah. Again, this is a personal observation, but the brand of politics, which has been Trump has been a race to the bottom. He's been using some pretty inflammatory language lately, and that doesn't always make it through to our immediate media headlines. I mean, he says that 2024 is the final battle, that was also - this guy doesn't use language by accident - that was also the language they used at the Waco cult. This is only one of four sets of indictments which are being prepared against him. But despite all of that, there's literally tens of millions of people who voted for him twice and want to vote for him again. And the Trump brand of politics is sometimes saying, oh, well, that's technically against the law, but, you know, who cares? So it is a worry. But let's hope American institutions are stronger than the individual. And we can only have our fingers crossed that peace is a civilised approach is possible. But it looks pretty dramatic, doesn't it?
ABO: Yeah, it sure does. Anything that follows Trump does. Now, Neil, we still don't know the exact charges yet. They're still sealed before he appears tomorrow. What do you think this will do for his 2024 campaign? Already the base is pitching in.
NEIL BREEN, 4BC: Well, it'll boost amongst those people that Bill is talking about, those people that Trump has somehow divided away from the rest of America, for sure. And then maybe the publicity drags others in. But Bill is 100% correct. This is a watershed moment for the United States and never has the United States been divided like this, probably since the Civil War. It's absolutely unbelievable to watch. But Sarah and Bill, I can't tell you – like, I sit here and do this radio show and in my 35 years in the media, I've never, ever dealt with a more divisive character. If I simply do a news story about Donald Trump and I say to everyone, don't write to me, I'm just letting you know what the grand jury has done with Donald Trump. I just get hate mail, like just carving me to pieces that I have no idea what I'm talking about. And you're part of the conspiracy. He just sends people troppo.
ABO: Incredibly, right? Even here in Australia.
BREEN: Yeah. Even here he does. He sends people on both sides of him absolutely crazy. Whenever I hear at work, I've got to do a Trump story. I say to the staff, I said, Oh, no, not a Trump story. I said, is this going to cost me?
ABO: Not again, it's hard to know which way to turn, right? This is the thing, because this is what he does. He divides people.
BREEN: Yeah, he does.
SHORTEN: I read an article somewhere saying that he took a great interest in the wrestling franchises in the 2000s. But somehow, he does seem to talk as if he's commentating on the wrestling. And, you know, that fires the mob up - one side against the other. Anyway, let's hope that the American institutions are strong. I should again say he's entitled to a presumption of not guilty. And he and let's hope that no one's above the law and that people can respect the system. But they are amazing scenes. All of the New York police have been told to wear their full uniform today… Wow.
ABO: Yeah, it's a big, big day unfolding in the US, that's for sure. Let's come back home now. And the PM has called time on TikTok, banning the Chinese owned app on all government devices over fears it could be a tool to spy on politicians. Bill, what will this mean for your career as a TikTok influencer?
SHORTEN: Well, it means that an otherwise anonymous career just becomes even more anonymous.
ABO: Come on, you're pretty big. 15,000 followers or something. That's handy.
SHORTEN: Yeah… It's something, isn't it? But no, I think the story today says the Prime Minister is thinking about, I don't think a final decision has been formally made, but there is a right across the world, I should say. Governments are advising and deciding that government phones and assets should not have TikTok on it for fear that it's being utilised by the Chinese government. The Europeans, the Americans, we're all sort of moving in the same direction. So, I think if that's the best advice of the security agencies, then we follow it. I mean, I've gone off TikTok formerly and I've got a way up, even if I stay on it in a private capacity using non-government phones. I think on that first, the way the world is going, we've got to follow the advice.
ABO: Yeah. And quickly, Neil, has the horse already bolted here? Is it too late to delete it?
BREEN: Well, I don't know about that. I'm not a cybersecurity expert, but this whole thing leaves me thoroughly confused. So we're spending $368 billion buying submarines because we want to protect ourselves against China in 50 years time. We're banning TikTok because it's owned by the Chinese government and we're worried about it infiltrating the government. Yet you've got Dan Andrews can't get to China quick enough. He was like the roadrunner, just left dust behind him. Mark McGowan, the West Australian Premier, is going there in a couple of weeks time. Annastacia Palaszczuk is going there and on the same page where there's a story today saying the Prime Minister is banning TikTok, the Prime Minister is quoted as saying, I'll go to China if I'm invited to. So, what is it? Are we in with China or do we hate them? Are they going to blow us up?
SHORTEN: No Neil, simple answer -
ABO: Very quickly, Bill.
SHORTEN: Simple answer Neil is, Australian governments can walk and chew gum. We can maintain our national security, but still seek to improve our trade position. It's just just the world we live in. We have to do more than one thing at a time.
ABO: Yes, it's a delicate dance, as always. Big news day today. Thank you so much for your time, guys.