E&OE TRANSCRIPT
KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Joining me is the Minister for the NDIS and Government Services. Bill Shorten’s had a big week with the valedictory, but you haven't stopped your work in the portfolio? There's some reform here. I want to start with this reform, some measures in relation to musical and art therapy within the NDIS. What's happening?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: We've, for the first time in the history of the Scheme, started to clarify what you can and can't spend money on. And one of the issues which we've said we want to address in the future is art and music therapy. At the moment, an art or music therapist can charge $193 an hour for providing a service. If. And we've said that we want to review that and we're happy for that to continue, provided we can see evidence that it's maintaining or improving the functional capacity of a participant. So, short answer is, if you currently have that $196 per hour in your plan, it's still there. When your plan finishes, we just want to see some evidence that in the future, continuing that $196 per hour, that it's improving or maintaining people's functional capacity. Now, in the event, it's not having that material effect, but it's still a good thing for people to do, you'll be able to charge a community rate of $68 an hour. And by the way, if you have four people in your class in that hour, you can still charge $193. So, listen, I understand people just want to charge $193 an hour and that's fair enough. I like art and music therapy, but we've got to make sure that it's in the best interest of the participant.
GILBERT: And have you had some pushback on it?
SHORTEN: Well, if you're telling someone they've got to provide some evidence of what they're doing is working, perhaps some people don't want to do that, but I know that the really good music therapists and art therapists, this is not a problem because they've got the evidence that they're helping people's functional capability, but we are asking for some outcome for the dollars. It's a big amount, 196 bucks an hour. And also, even if you're just doing it so people have got community activity, you can still charge 68 bucks an hour. I don't know, that's pretty good. And the other thing is, if you have four people in your class now, you can charge $193.
GILBERT: Yeah. So, it's part of the latest step in the effort to try and make it sustainable, essentially?
SHORTEN: Well, the path to making the Scheme long term is to make sure that we're paying for outcomes. People shouldn't view this Scheme as just a way to bill hours. What we want to do is focus on the participant. So, this is a classic example. I like music therapy, I've seen it work. Where it demonstrates that people, it's maintaining or improving, you know, highly disabled people's functional capability, great, keep charging. But if it's something more, as an activity, you can still charge at 68 bucks an hour. And if you're getting four people in your class doing music or doing painting, 193 bucks, which is, I think, reasonable.
GILBERT: Yeah. So, on a few other matters, the social media ban, which is going to pass, the Coalition's going to pass it. They've got at least one, Alex Antic, going across the floor. There's I think three or four others Andrew was reporting that are holding, you know, standing by to possibly cross the floor. What do you make of this? What sort of feedback have you been getting on the social media reforms?
SHORTEN: I think overwhelmingly parents are relieved to see a stand being taken. The reality is that social media can be very good. This legislation recognises it has some very good purposes for vulnerable kids, it can provide benefits. But big tech's got to get the message that we're not going to let you trading kids data of 13 year olds and 14 year olds. Big tech's got to get the message you have a duty of care. This isn't about punishing a child or punishing a parent, but these big tech companies, they're like a giant part of the global economy. They're making squillions. It's about time that they started treating our kids as kids, not as, you know, decimal points in a gazillion profit balance sheet.
GILBERT: It's interesting. Peter Dutton, he knows the politics of this are red hot. And while some in the party room might have some concerns, as you've said, families, parents, the people, you know, anyone with kids or grandkids would know this issue is absolutely reckoning.
SHORTEN: I get there are some libertarians in the Liberal Party in the far right and maybe even on the far left who think that doing anything is an imposition on free will and free choice, but kids are not commodities. I want our kids to have their childhoods and these libertarians, let's have the debate when people are adults, but do they really think that a 13 or 14 year old's data should be trafficked?
GILBERT: Yeah. Well, you're an adult for a long time generally, aren't you? You're not a kid for very long.
SHORTEN: That's right.
GILBERT: It’s about preserving their childhoods and absolutely, families that you speak to, that I speak to, are overwhelmingly in support of it. I want to ask you about the Greens capitulating on the housing bill. Were you surprised by that or predictable?
SHORTEN: I'm pleased that Clare O'Neil's got the bill through. I think it is a bit of momentum in the last week of Parliament of this year. The Greens have really, in my opinion, lost the plot. They have just been oppositionalist and they've made the perfect the enemy of the good. This is policy they previously supported. I think the Greens think that if they can sabotage Labor then they can harvest our vote and say, well look, we're the only really fair dinkum people because we're so pure. But as a famous politician once said, only the pure are impotent, and the Greens in opposition mentality I think is turning people off.
GILBERT: A couple of quick ones before we go. Donald Trump has announced massive tariffs even on Canada. 25% on Canada, Mexico, he's not even in the White House yet. This is going to be a wild ride, isn't it?
SHORTEN: Well, we will do everything we can to make sure that we protect Australia's economic interests. You know, I know the Government looked at both political party and America's economic policies. We are an open trading nation. I think we'll do okay with the Americans. The challenge will be other nations affected by the Yanks trying to dump stuff in. We'll just have to be on our A game, but I know our people are working on that day and night.
GILBERT: Yeah and as I said, you had your valedictory last week. How are you feeling today? Both personally, but in terms of where the Government's at?
SHORTEN: I had a chance to briefly address the Caucus. It'll be my last caucus meeting. I've been to about 400 of them over 17 years. I thank the Caucus. I think this Caucus has given the Prime Minister and the executive outstanding unity and support. You know they have on the wall the pictures of all the former leaders and I said the only way that someone gets to have their picture on the wall is because of the faces in the room, and the Labor Party, what it has when everything else, all the chips are down is we have to learn to stick together. And I thank people for their commitment to the people of Australia and sticking together.
GILBERT: And you think they'll win?
SHORTEN: I think the election is winnable, but it's a contest. I do think, however, we've got a positive set of agendas. You know, there's a cost of living crisis, you know, the tax cuts, the Medicare stuff, the cheaper medicine, you know, the help of the energy rebates. What we think about when we get up in the morning as a government is how do we help everyday Aussies? I think the opposition hasn't done enough homework. They've got no policy other than that sort of bizarre Soviet Union nuclear policy.
GILBERT: Yes, well, we will stay in touch. You're going to be Vice Chancellor at Canberra Uni, so, yeah, we'll still see you which is nice.
SHORTEN: Why not? Thank you.
GILBERT: That'd be good. Thanks, Bill.