E&OE TRANSCRIPT
KAREN MIDDLETON, HOST: Just a warning before we start. This episode contains references to family, domestic and sexual violence. Please take care while listening.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: I do think that elevating this issue in the public conversation is a call to action, and I think if you think about some of those rallies, there was a clear call about, for example, men being part of the conversation, and men being part of the solution, and I think that is an important conversation that our community has to have, because if we're not talking about this, how are we going to turn around attitudes?
KAREN MIDDLETON: Hi. I'm Karen Middleton, Guardian Australia's Political Editor, coming to you from the lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri peoples. Today on Australian Politics my guest is the Federal Minister for Social Services, Amanda Rishworth.
Next week marks the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and we'll look at the situation here in Australia, whether anything's improving, and how you can tell if it is.
We'll talk about the social media figures teaching young men to degrade women, and the tools available to try and change that. And we'll discuss how people are manipulating the social welfare system to punish their former and current intimate partners and what's being done to stop it.
Amanda Rishworth, welcome to the podcast.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Great to be with you.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Now, it's a tough subject we're going to talk about, and the statistics are pretty depressing; one woman killed every four days in the first half of 2024 in Australia, many allegedly at the hands of an intimate partner, or as we know, someone who wanted to be. Worldwide, a woman is killed every 10 minutes.
Next week starts with the International Day of the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and then the United Nations' 16 Days of Activism Against Gender Based Violence.
Now I don't mean to start off being negative or sounding negative, but are these occasions really just another reminder of how intractable and enormous this problem is?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I think what these occasions really do is importantly elevate this issue for a consistent and persistent period of time. The statistics are really difficult to hear, but it is also important that we talk about these statistics, because they are lives, they are women's lives, and not only those that have been killed, but for those that experience family and domestic violence, because not only does it affect those individuals, but it affects families and ripples through communities.
So I do think it's important that we can't put our head in the sand when it comes to this issue, but why I think this 16 days is so important is because it continues to challenge us to not only talk about what the problem is, but what are some of the solutions.
It is an important reminder that it's global, this is a global issue, and we are not immune from it here in Australia, gender based violence is everywhere, but I think it is an important time for us to look at what we are doing, but also what more we need to do to address what is an issue that is too pervasive in our community.
KAREN MIDDLETON: How's next week going to be marked here in Parliament, and by the Government?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: It will be marked in a number of ways. We will be, of course, importantly lighting up Parliament House in orange on the first day of activism, and there will be a number of activities across Parliament.
But what I'm hoping for, as Minister who's responsible for this, is that after the 16 days we keep having this conversation. I've spoken a lot about how we need consistent and persistent effort, 'cause if we think about some of the drivers of gender-based violence, they are going to take some time to turn around; it's attitudes towards women, it's attitudes towards accepting misogyny.
And so these things do take some time if we are going to prevent some of the drivers of gender-based violence, but I think it's really, really important that we start this important, or not start, but have this attention on this conversation next week.
KAREN MIDDLETON: I want to come to the attitudes, 'cause it does feel like we're going in the wrong direction, I have to say, but to your point about having the conversation, you know, we've had a series of terrible events that have had a lot of attention from early this year in particular, that really seem to have galvanised public concern again about this situation. We saw people take to the streets again, we saw that a few years ago, we, you know, we think about the disappearance of Samantha Murphy, the woman in Ballarat, the alleged murder of Molly Ticehurst in Forbes in New South Wales, and then this week we've heard the terrible, or read the terrible story of 19 year old Isla Bell in Melbourne who has been murdered.
Do you think that this public reckoning, or this latest public reckoning, has made any difference to the safety of women in this country, what we've talked about and focused on for these past months?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I do think that elevating this issue in the public conversation is a call to action, and I think if you think about some of those rallies, there was a clear call about, for example, men being part of the conversation, and men being part of the solution, and I think that is an important conversation that our community has to have, because if we're not talking about this, how are we going to turn around attitudes?
It has led to, importantly, two National Cabinets, First Ministers discussing this issue. And I do think that it has led to better understanding from those victim survivors that may hear a conversation out there and seek help.
I turn to our Escaping Violence Program, which is providing money to help you set up a new life when you're leaving a violent relationship. We've seen with us talking about this issue, that particular program, more people reach out and ask for support.
So I do think this having a broad conversation about this helps us change attitudes, it also helps victim survivors know that they're not alone, and that there is help available, and importantly allows for policy makers to give it the attention that it deserves.
So I think there are some positives, but I think this sort of misconception that this can be fixed quickly is, you know, not actually what the evidence shows us.
KAREN MIDDLETON: I think we know it can't be fixed quickly, 'cause it just never seems to be fixed.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: And there's no silver bullet, but I do think it's important to recognise that there are frontline workers out there every day who are making a difference to people. I think it's an important message to give victim survivors that there is help out there if they reach out, and that there are stories of people who escape violent relationships.
I mean one of the most powerful stories I heard was when we went to text messages, SMS messages for 1800RESPECT. So not only would you have a phone line, but you could SMS. And the fact that, as someone that had been strangled by their intimate partner would not have been able to call, but was able to reach out via SMS and escape that violent relationship shows that actions we take every day do save lives.
So there's challenges to eliminate and to prevent, and this is going to take some time, but they're actions that we as community, as governments take every day also does make a difference, and I think that's an important message also.
KAREN MIDDLETON: To the point about involving men in the conversation and back to your point about attitudes, we're also hearing, unfortunately, in public debate constantly about the influence of some particular high profile people online, people who are misogynist frankly, in fact there's one in particular who openly identifies himself that way and champions the hatred of women and has an enormous following globally and here in Australia.
Back in the middle of the year I know you launched a new stage of the Stop it at the Start campaign focused on young men. How do you tell if that's having an effect, and how do you have an effect with just an ad campaign up against such a powerful force?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, it's a really challenging environment to work in. What our Stop it at the Start campaign research showed is that we were actually seeing this online misogyny, both direct misogyny, but also casual misogyny online. It's actually, when you think about the world that some of our young people are entering online, it is both direct misogyny, it is attitudes that condone violence. It's pretty significant.
So the Stop it at the Start campaign is one area which was really to try and raise adults', people like myself that have young boys, awareness of what is actually happening online, because what I see online is different to what young people see.
So that campaign is about trying to get adults to understand the issue first and foremost, and future phases will look at, you know, further deepening that work.
But it's not the only work we're doing. We know that young men do want to have these conversations in person, and so that we're conducting what's called the Healthy Mate Trial, that's about actually having programs in schools to have mentors talk with young men about some of these sort of attitudes, and where they might be at in their life.
We've got a number of different programs and working with States and Territories of looking at how we combat it. I don't think, once again, there is one silver bullet here, but we've got to be working with young men; they've got to be part of the conversation, and we've got to broaden our understanding out there in the community about what gender-based violence is.
KAREN MIDDLETON: One of the things that struck me when I saw, particularly the ad targeting young men online, the television ad, was that it really underlined that parents are not knowing and seeing what these young men and boys are getting fed, and we know because of the algorithms on social media that a parent isn't getting the same material that a child is getting, even if they're signed up to the same sites.
And the thing that really struck me, I guess, sort of the at the end of that ad, was that, you know, I think the father figure was trying to talk to the son, and the son sort of didn't want to talk, and then you saw the son sort of liking one of these posts. I think I've got that right. And I thought, oh, that's almost sort of compounding the stress for parents, thinking, I'm a bit powerless.
What do you say to parents who are freaking out about what their young men and boys, and their young girls might be watching? And you know, we've seen examples of sexual behaviours and the suggestion that there's a normalisation of particularly violent sexual behaviours, because kids are seeing them and thinking that's what you do. What do you say to parents who are worrying about that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I can totally understand that. As a mum of two boys, it is on my mind all of the time. What's really important, and if parents are looking for some support, the Stop it at the Start website, along with our consent website, have some really practical tools that parents can use about how to start a conversation. Often parents, certainly I know myself, lack a little bit of confidence about how to have these conversations with young people. So the Stop it at the Start campaign has been about getting parents to sort of have a think about some of the challenges, but also there are resources available about how to have these conversations, and I think that's part of the solution, of course there's other regulatory responses as well.
Some of the regulatory responses we've had around making the deep fake pornography illegal to ensure that we're looking at age limits for social media, but also that digital duty of care, so putting the responsibility back on to the social media platforms as well.
So we've got to tackle this from two angles, I think; we've got support parents to have those conversations and understand some of the challenges, we've got to work across society and community, you know, with other programs to change attitudes.
But of course there's also about the regulatory response that we do need to have when it comes to social media, and you know, those algorithms are very much, you pause for a minute, and you get served something completely different up. We need to make sure that there is responsibility back on those social media platforms, and the Communications Minister has signalled a duty of care, for example, on these digital platforms.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Something like this seems to me hard to measure the success of, you know, you're trying to stop something from happening. I presume it's hard to measure the success of policy programs that, you know, that you're funding as well, but an ad campaign where you're trying to change attitudes, how do you measure the success of something like that, and your broader policy programs in this field, which is so fraught?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, it is a really big challenge. In the National Plan we have worked on an Outcomes Framework to try and look at what we can measure. There are challenges, and I'll just give one example, prevalent starter, for example, the more we raise this issue, we're hoping more women will reach out for help. So the prevalence data of how many people reach out for help isn't always a great indicator that things are getting worse, because we know generations ago many women covered up their bruises when they went out to the, you know, to the shops, but we hear so many stories where it was not spoken about.
KAREN MIDDLETON: I walked into a door.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah, I walked into, or fell down the stairs. So, look, you know, there are challenges with those measures like prevalence data. But we have been working on an Outcomes Framework.
There is a national survey of attitudes which does help us track attitudes towards this, and they have shown that there is a better understanding of, for example, family and domestic violence occurring in Australia, but 91 per cent of people that responded to the most recent survey indicated that they did believe family and domestic violence was a problem in Australia, which shows there is a better understanding, and that has improved. But only 47 per cent thought it happened in their suburb.
And so we've still got a lot of work to do, but there are measures out there. They are imperfect, but we have been working with the States and Territories on an outcomes framework to look at how we do measure these types of impacts. We're also running a number of trials to try and get to what best practice looks like, particularly when it comes to boys and men.
There's one program that we're running at the moment called Supporting Adolescent Boys, which is looking at working with boys that have experienced family and domestic violence and trying to get in early enough to stop the cycle from happening again.
We will be putting in a pretty rigorous evaluation framework. We also fund ANROWS to try and gather the research out there, not just research done by Government, but research out there to look at what works, and build an evidence base. But it is challenging, but I think there's a number of things, and we're certainly committed to how do we use the evidence to work out what we're making progress on.
KAREN MIDDLETON: I mentioned earlier the names, the sadly now well-known names of a couple of women who we know have fallen victim to violence and lost their lives this year, and it does seem now in the public square that we're more willing to talk about this, and you know, it's no longer just that domestic violence issue that nobody discusses or that police don't investigate or anything like that. That's all changed. But there are still some cohorts of women who aren't getting the attention in that public debate that others are, and I'm thinking particularly of Indigenous women in there, and there's been a criticism levelled in, I think, the recent Senate report on missing and murdered First Nations women that the media don't cover the issues and the circumstances of Indigenous women in the same way.
What's the Government doing to tackle that issue for Indigenous women, 'cause I think the statistics are what is it, something like they're 34 times more likely to be hospitalised due to violence than non-Indigenous women, and six times more likely to die as a result of family violence. What is the Government doing about that?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: So First Nations women are disproportionately affected by family, domestic and sexual violence, and it doesn't get the attention that it needs. But also, what we are very much focused on is working with First Nations women, but also men as well, to look at some of the unique drivers.
I'll give you one example, that Indigenous women have told me that they are reluctant to report to police for a variety of reasons. One being that they often report being misidentified as the perpetrator in circumstances. In other circumstances they're very worried that if they report family and domestic violence then Child Protection will get involved.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Which goes to Stolen Generation issues, I guess?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Absolutely, and you know, systemic racism, for example, is something that they feel very strongly. So one of the things that we worked on in the National Plan was a standalone Action Plan for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women. That was our first piece of work, and what we're seeing now is funding flowing, but it was designed with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander experts and people on the ground.
And what that's led to is specifically funding a range of programs that are being delivered by Aboriginal controlled organisations, because of that trust, because of understanding, knowing what works. There was a very strong message as well that we had to work with men, and so we're funding, for example, Aboriginal men's wellness centres, which are really looking at cultural healing and being culturally informed. But we're also funding particularly frontline services for victim survivors run by Aboriginal controlled organisations to bring that cultural understanding to the forefront.
So we have been looking at how we do fund services, but in line with the Closing the Gap Agreement, to do that where we can through Aboriginal controlled organisations. And further to that though, we need to do further work in this space, and we are currently, while this Action Plan has got money flowing, we're currently working on a stand alone Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander National Plan for Family Safety.
KAREN MIDDLETON: 'Cause that report that I mentioned, that Senate report, did recommend that.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yep.
KAREN MIDDLETON: So that lines up with that in terms of funding community controlled organisations, but it also said there should be a sustainable funding mechanism, and we're still, I think, are we not, talking about a grants round, and that isn't locked in for the long term, permanently, or even just the long term, and I guess that goes to some of the issues that proponents of a Voice to Parliament have raised about the fact that a Government can change or a Government's priorities can change and funding can change.
What can you do about that, about a sustainability of that kind of funding, so it doesn't just get switched off when there's a change of Government or a change of Minister?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, it's a really important point. Our Action Plan is a longer term plan, but our stand alone plan will be 10 years. And I must say it's not a plan just owned by the Commonwealth Government, all States and Territories have signed up to both our National Plan, our Action Plan, and our, and I hope I will be able to get agreement for our stand alone First Nations Family Safety Plan.
But it is a challenge that will come with if there's a change of Government and they won't sign up to it. Governments do change their priorities. I'm hoping that with such buy in, particularly of our National Plan, because that wasn't, once again, just governments, it was victim survivors, and with our First Nations Family Safety Plan, it is bringing some of the expert First Nations voices, victim survivors, but also those with deep knowledge into the room together.
I hope that if we sign off the Strategic Framework and the Action Plan, that there will be buy in across successive Governments even if a Government changes. But I can't, unfortunately, it's democracy, and I can't stop that.
We are looking, of course, at things like longer grant agreements in my department more broadly, but this is a challenge, and one example of that is the new national partnerships that the Commonwealth has proposed to the States and Territories will be five years, to give that certainty, they've been two years, they've been short term.
So we are looking at ways that we can more sustainably fund, but unfortunately I can't protect against change of Government's priorities, but it's certainly been our Government's priority, and we're trying to build a framework that is enduring.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Back in August we heard from the Domestic, Family and Sexual Violence Commissioner, Michaelia Cronin, she gave an address to the National Press Club, and one of the things she said there was that she was concerned that the social welfare system was being used against women, it was being weaponised against women.
I reported on that at the time, and I reported that the Government was considering a review of social support payments, the whole system, to look at whether it was enabling this kind of behaviour, enabling people to punish their current or former partners. Can you tell us where that is up to, where that review is up to; has it started, and what's it found?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Yeah, look, this review goes across all Government systems to look at how payments and this includes the Tax Office as well as the income support system could be used as a form of financial abuse or coercive control.
We've already made some changes. Importantly, for example, one of the key areas is flexibility. Sometimes these systems can be very, very rigid and don't allow for flexibility. So we've already done some measures to try and provide some flexibility and get some understanding about how the Social Security system can respond to that sort of thing.
But there is more work to do, and I'm really pleased that across government the people working on this have met just last week with the Lived Advisory Panel to talk about their experiences, and I think right across Government systems there's an opportunity to look at how we can remove some of the ways that people weaponise.
And one example is for the purposes of tax being signed up as a company director without someone's knowledge. There's a number of ways I've heard around child support as well.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Yeah. So child support's one that's been raised. I know Jenny Macklin's Committee now annually reports and looks at some of these issues, has repeatedly said the child support system is being used to punish women, you know, it's disadvantaging women who have custody of kids and allowing partners to manipulate the timing of payments or withhold payments, and the system seems to assume, you know, give them the benefit of the doubt, and then the women can lose Family Tax Benefit as a result. That, from the outside, looks like a straightforward thing to fix. Is it not?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, look, it is about really focused on reporting, for example, and the reason why people can get away with doing that is not reporting their income appropriately. So once again, we need to look at how we enforce better reporting of, if we talk about one parent, parent being the paying parents, how they report their income accurately and appropriately.
So we do have an expert panel looking at child support, but across Government systems there are many different ways, and even State systems as well.
I had a powerful story when I went into meet with a survivor, and she told me the story about how her partner just used to deliberately park her car every single day and get a fine in her name, every day, and she had, I think it was approximately $10,000, 10 years later, owing as a result of those parking fines.
Once again, this was a systems issue, and we actually were able to resolve it, but it shouldn't take a visit by the Minister for Social Services to get this change at a State level, but it is how we build this into systems, to try and ensure that they're not weaponised, and that there is more flexibility, and that family and domestic violence and the impacts of that can be built into the system responses.
So there's work currently underway. I'm really, really pleased that, for example, we have had, and this is being run across Government, the people working on it meet with our Lived Experience Advisory Committee, but I also am aware that this inquiry will have public submissions open very shortly, and I would encourage people to make a public submission on the PM&C website to have your say, because without the lived experience, we can't always see those little gnarly things that get in the way, and can have an impact on people experiencing it.
KAREN MIDDLETON: So is there a timeline for this inquiry, this review?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I understand that this is ongoing work, and this is being led, like I said, across Government, across Tax, across Social Security, but we'll keep working on it and looking at how we can deliver systems change.
KAREN MIDDLETON: So you haven't got a date yet?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: There isn't a date, but of course, I think this is an example where we've got to continually try and make progress. I don't think this is going to be fixed or solved in one legislative change or one administrative change; this is going to be iterative work that needs to be ongoing.
KAREN MIDDLETON: We haven't got a lot of time left, and I want to broaden out, seeing as I have you trapped here in the pod- in the pod carriage.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Very trapped.
KAREN MIDDLETON: I want to broaden out and ask you about broader politics, you know, we're in the final Parliamentary fortnight of the year, it could be the last one before the election, only the Prime Minister knows apparently, maybe he'll hold it before May next year, in which case you might not be back in Parliament before that. But the trend in the opinion polls is not favouring the Government at the moment, and I saw a suggestion, I think the other day, that the betting markets are now tipping a Dutton victory. Is the Government in trouble?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, look, I don't follow the opinion polls too much. There is no doubt though, I would say, talking with people in the community, that they are doing it tough. But they also can see that Labor, and our Labor Government, has been firmly focused on the issues that matter to them. And that's what this election will be about.
The next election will be about, you know, what are politicians offering for the next three years? And I think what we've done as a Government has demonstrated a very, very big focus in a number of areas, whether that is, or particularly cost of living, but you know, our fight on inflation, along with issues like family domestic and sexual violence, and then we will be laying out our plan for what comes next for the next few years.
And I think when that is compared with what the Opposition has to offer, I am very confident that the work that we have done will be very much acknowledged. And this is, I think, what happens at elections, they are choices, and I am, you know, know that we know as a Government there's more work to be done.
KAREN MIDDLETON: You talked about the Opposition just then, and you're from South Australia. There is a Liberal Senator from South Australia, Alex Antic, who is one of two Coalition Senators who sponsored a bill designed really to start unwinding abortion law: it's a private Senator's bill, it's been sitting on the notice paper in the Senate for a couple of years. We've seen abortion debate reemerge in the last little while in the context of the Queensland election, and I think in your home State it has as well.
We know that Peter Dutton told his Party Room a couple of weeks ago to shut up and stop talking about that, that there's nothing to be gained, it's not a Federal issue. The Greens have now raised this and are wanting to ask the Senate next week to discharge that bill, and therefore, there will be another debate. Is there a Government position on this, given we're talking about women, and this is, you know, separate, but not unconnected to issues in some respects around women's violence in some circumstances. What's the Government position on this bill?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, let's be really clear, the Commonwealth does not, in the main, regulate terminations and provide medical care, that is absolutely in the domain of States and Territories. I mean to be honest, I think this is politics being played out by those Liberal Senators, but I think it also goes to Peter Dutton's leadership.
I mean Peter Dutton made, allegedly, these comments to the Party Room. Yet, you still have two Senators pursuing sort of this debate which is all about politics. So, look, I, from my perspective the Government is not going to get distracted. Our focus is firmly on supporting Australians at this time. It's a difficult time for many Australians. We're absolutely focused on cost of living, we're focused on our fight against inflation, we are focused on what are the ingredients to build Australia's future; that's what we are focused on. We're not going to get caught up in these sort of political games. But ultimately it's a question, I think, for Peter Dutton. Will he stare down these Senators?
KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, the other one, the other Senator I mention is Queensland Nationals Senator Matt Canavan, co-sponsoring that bill, and he has said, since the Greens indicated they want to move this motion, that he's not pulling his bill, he does not want that to happen. And yes, I take your point about the jurisdictional question about abortion law, but it looks like there's going to be a vote in the Senate on whether this motion should proceed or not, and everyone's going to have to take a position or abstain. Is the Government going to set a position for Senators on that bill, do you think, or are they going to have a conscience vote because this is an issue that has traditionally been a conscience issue?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Look, I wouldn't presuppose that Senators, I'm not a Senator, but like I said, I think if I think this is less a question about the Government and more a question about Peter Dutton's leadership. I mean he talks tough in the Party Room and then won't stand up to Senator Antic and Senator Canavan. That's the problem he's got. And this really is all just about politics, and we'll see if this vote comes to fruition or not. It's hard to know with the Senate. As a House of Reps member, I don't ever predict what the Senate's going to do. But I would say that this is, quite frankly, shows that the Liberal and National Party don't have their eye on the number one issue, which is supporting Australians, whereas the Government does.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Let's go back and finish where we started, which is on eliminating violence against women. Obviously the cost of living crisis that we're in only serves to add to the pressure on families and households and arguably puts people who are already vulnerable to violence at more risk.
Is there anything in the current circumstance that makes you optimistic about reducing the levels of violence?
AMANDA RISHWORTH: I am optimistic that we can reduce the impact of family and domestic violence. When I talk to many young men, despite some of the challenging environment they're in, I see a lot of respect and belief in equality, and that is an important driver when we look at violence against women and children.
When I go out and see some of the people doing early intervention work to address trauma in young men that have experienced family and domestic violence, I do have hope in the future. And when I see the amazing work being done by frontline workers and the resilience and the bravery of victim survivors at the centre of calling this out, making that brave choice to call out behaviour, to leave a violent relationship, or even just to call out coercive control and leave that situation, I have a lot of hope that this is something we can tackle. It's not going to happen overnight, it's not going to happen with any one policy, or any one jurisdiction. It's a whole of society and community approach.
But finally, I just say, when I see other organisations outside of Government wanting to stand up and take responsibility as well, that gives me a lot of hope. I think back to the fact that it's not often in this country that the Government legislates a bit of leave, family and domestic violence leave, and you have many employers absolutely willing to take it on, and not actually create, "Oh, this is going to cost too much” debate in this country.
And so I actually think there is reason for hope. There's still a lot of work to be done, but I am hopeful, and I want any victim survivor out there that may be experiencing family domestic violence to know that there is help available, to please reach out.
One of the ways you can reach out is on 1800RESPECT, but there's many people here that want to help you and want to support you.
KAREN MIDDLETON: Well, Minister, tough problem to solve, tough thing to talk about. Thanks for being here on Australian politics.
AMANDA RISHWORTH: Thank you.
KAREN MIDDLETON: If you or anyone you know needs help, you can contact Australia's national family domestic and sexual violence counselling service on 1800RESPECT, or 1800 737 732.
This episode was produced by Cinnamon Nippard, the Executive Producer is Miles Herbert. I'm Karen Middleton. Thanks for listening.