E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Leaving politics; International student cap; Social media ban
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Well, no doubt you already know that former Labor Leader and Labor front bencher Bill Shorten is retiring from politics in February. Today, the Member for Maribyrnong will deliver his valedictory speech, reflecting on almost two decades in office and, of course, public life more broadly. And he's in the studio with me. Bill Shorten, welcome.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good morning, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Your daughter's in the studio too, so she will absolutely work out if you're not being honest in any of your answers. So, let's go. Are you ready?
SHORTEN: Yeah Clementine keeps me grounded. She lifts me up and can take me back down.
KARVELAS: She's – that's the role of a teenager. Give us a forward sizzle on your speech. What should we expect?
SHORTEN: I'm going to say thank you to a lot of people. None of us who serve in the Parliament of Australia get there by ourselves, so there are a lot of thank yous. I also want to reflect that I've had the privilege of serving in three great public institutions in my public service. That's the Australian Workers Union, that's the Labor Party, including the incredible privilege of leading it, and also the Commonwealth Parliament itself, which is so fundamental to democracy. And I'm excited, though I've mixed feelings about going. I love my job, I love my electorate, I love helping people, love the portfolios working with people with disability and working with people who need Centrelink and Medicare and child support. But I'm excited about moving to education to help make sure that the University of Canberra and higher education gets the support and it deserves.
KARVELAS: There's an anecdote in one of the papers about Paul Keating lauding you for taking a job in the, in the world of the public sphere rather than the private sphere. Did you make that decision very actively? Did you think, I don't want to be a lobbyist?
SHORTEN: Yes, I did. Listen, there's completely nothing wrong with politicians going to work in the private sphere. The private economy is what generates Australian economic growth. For myself, I like serving people. I want to help people and I think I'm going to want to do that for the rest of my life. Now, I've been very lucky to be able to help people in different walks of life, from workers to companies to the electorate to people with disability. But now I've got a chance to work in education. Education's still the best path from disadvantage to advantage. So, I want to work in public policy and helping people, and I guess we're all interested in something and that's my vocation, service.
KARVELAS: I'm going to be listening very carefully for any lessons you have for Labor, especially now that Labor is going to, you know, no doubt be in an election period pretty soon. You said earlier, and we've spoken before about this, that Labor has to have something to fight for. Is that still your message today?
SHORTEN: Yes, it is. I think Labor is its best when we are fighting for people and fighting for things and ideas, but I think we're doing that right now. So, therefore, be it the tax cuts that were introduced, be it the improvements to bulk billing, I think this is a government fighting for people. It's been a very difficult time for everyday Australians. The cost of living is just really, really hard for people. The 13 Reserve Bank of Australia interest rate increases is really pushing people to the brink. But I think what this government's doing has been to try and ease the pressure. Inflation started with a six in front of it when the Liberals were in power, now it's got a two in front of it. So, we're doing what we can, but it's just a tough time for ordinary people.
KARVELAS: What do you say to the accusation that Labor has not been bold enough? That Labor has been too timid in government?
SHORTEN: I don't think that's fair. I take my own area, the NDIS. It's a $42 billion scheme changing the lives of 680,000 people, but it needed fixing and we're fixing it. I picked something as mundane as Centrelink. When I say mundane, what I mean is it doesn't necessarily get the headlines of a global G20 meeting or a budget, but, you know, now we're answering – when people ring up and Centrelink or Medicare, and to be honest, that's what most people do with government - it's not talking to a politician - we're answering the phones quicker, we're getting payments out to people quicker, we've reduced the stockpile of outstanding payments. But, you know, across the sphere, I think there's the same boldness. We want to have a mature, renewable energy economy and we're doing that. And, you know, from tax cuts onwards, real wage movement. Yeah, there's a lot happening under the hood.
KARVELAS: Do you think, though, that voters will be looking for Labor to have a sort of bold second term agenda?
SHORTEN: I think voters want to know that a government's on their side. I think voters want to know that the government understands what's going on in their lives. This government is very grounded and so they're fundamental tests. Is this government trying to make my life better or worse? This government is, by our cost of living changes in Medicare. This Government says – a people say, does this Government – is it trying hard every day for us? And we are, and you name it, from foreign affairs to defence to tax to cost of living to battling Woolies and Coles and holding companies to account. Yeah, we are busting the scams, you know. So, I think this is a government which is focused on how you help people get ahead.
KARVELAS: Labor's disconnect with working class voters, or potentially having a disconnect with working class voters, people who earn more are voting Labor. If you look at the trends, does that worry you?
SHORTEN: You always want more people voting for you. So, if people aren't voting for you, that's always a focus. But the way you get people to vote for you is you focus on them, not yourself. I think there is disillusionment with the major parties, but I think there is –
KARVELAS: There really is, right?
SHORTEN: There is a range of factors for that. I think part of it is that people get their information from some diffuse sources. I think a lot of the stuff which passes for political news is just Facebook unattributed opinion. So, I think we're seeing, in parts, a fracturing of society into silos, into people who talk to people who agree with them and yell at everyone else. So, our challenge is to do the basics well. People don't want government in their lives, but they do want the governments when they need them to do the basics well. I know in my portfolios I ask every week of my very talented public servants, are we answering the phones quicker? Are we getting people their money quicker? Are they waiting less time in a Centrelink queue? Do the basics well and the rest looks after itself.
KARVELAS: The next NDIS Minister. Now, I know you're not the Prime Minister and so you can't announce the next NDIS Minister, but you know, there are many people who are very anxious about who that might be. Who do you think would do a good job?
SHORTEN: Why don't we unpack why you think they're anxious, Patricia?
KARVELAS: Well, you tell me.
SHORTEN: Well, maybe they like me?
KARVELAS: Well, maybe they do.
SHORTEN: Well, there we go.
KARVELAS: So, who would they also like?
SHORTEN: I didn't mean to torture that compliment out of you. Um so, the Government's full of passionate, clever people. I think to do the job of NDIS in Cabinet, you need to be passionate, you need to be smart. We've got a fair number of people who pass that test.
KARVELAS: Ok. Your next role is going to be as Vice Chancellor at the University of Canberra. Can you imagine being pretty frustrated at the country's politicians if you were a VC trying to organise your enrolments for next year?
SHORTEN: Well, I was a bit bemused by – well, first of all, it's a great gift to work at the University of Canberra. Canberra has been my second city for 17 years and there's no better way to improve people's lives than to give them an education. Education is an asset which doesn't lose value and creating a spirit of lifelong learning can only be good for the country, its productivity and the individual. In terms of federal policy, Jason Clare's got a lot of good ideas. What did surprise me was the Liberal Party rejecting a cap on the number of international students. I mean, effectively what the Liberals and their new besties in their bromance, the Greens political party, have done has decided to double immigration. Now, at the moment, when there's housing pressure bringing in a lot more people seems counterintuitive. So, I actually thought what the Liberals have done this week and I, I'm getting less partisan as I go, but on this one, what they did this week was so oxygen stealingly dumb, I need an oxygen tank. But because when I've read in today's papers, maybe they weren't dumb, maybe they were just being greedy. Because just before they did the vote to allow, you know, open slaver to our borders on people coming here, I discovered the Liberals are having fundraisers with visa agents.
KARVELAS: There is a story in the Sydney Morning Herald today.
SHORTEN: So, maybe I was wrong. I take it back. Maybe the Libs aren't dumb, maybe they're just greedy?
KARVELAS: Do you agree with the student caps?
SHORTEN: Yeah.
KARVELAS: You do?
SHORTEN: I think that makes sense. I think it's one of the levers that we have to look at the number of people coming to Australia. The other thing is that, I mean, you know, higher education policy is something which I'll work on when I'm in higher education and when I go and work at the University of Canberra, I absolutely must make clear to people, including my colleagues, I'll be working for the university, not for the government. That's the team I'll be backing then. But I think that there's a lot of domestic demand which we need to encourage. I think adult education is the sweet spot. We've got to keep skilling and reskilling and we've got to make that as accessible as possible for people.
KARVELAS: Do you think international students have been scapegoated for the housing crisis?
SHORTEN: A little bit. I don't think it's all them. I agree with that point. We need more supply. I think you find that international students put some pressure in some parts on rental markets, but we do need international students. It's an important export industry. I think what the Liberals should have done is sit down with Labor and just worked it through. But instead, I suppose in the shadow of an election where they can sniff the fumes of conflict, they've decided to take the weaker part for an opposition and just oppose. See, I've been Opposition Leader. Sometimes you've got to oppose, but sometimes you've got to back things in. The way this Parliament and Parliament should work is that you disagree where you have to, but you agree where you can. And up till the last few days they supported a cap, so –
KARVELAS: Well, they say their argument, and they're not here, but I'll just put it forward, is that they think it's badly designed and therefore shouldn't be supported. You don't buy it?
SHORTEN: Why didn't they talk through their design? You know, it's easy to just throw rocks. Clever leaders offer alternatives, not just negativity. But anyway, that's the game we're in at the moment.
KARVELAS: There's a huge announcement today – big change to the Future Fund. Biggest change in its 18-year history. the government has announced it will direct it to invest in the energy transition and housing as well. Is it a politicisation of the Future Fund? Is it right to give it these boundaries?
SHORTEN: I've been a director of Australian super before I came into Parliament for a decade. One of the strengths of – I think the most successful pension funds or superannuation funds is when they diversify asset classes. The proposition that you might move from hanging onto the side of the pool and just buying domestic or international equities to more diverse asset classes, which can be countercyclical. I don't think that's exceptional.
KARVELAS: What does the next couple of months look like for you? I know February is when you officially stopped being Minister. Does that mean you campaign for Labor till February and then new hat, new life, no campaigning for Labor?
SHORTEN: Well, there's two parts to that question. First of all, we've got some really exciting announcements to make about further improvements to the NDIS. Today is the second, or it's the second annual, or it's the biannual anniversary of the foundation of our Fraud Fusion Taskforce. Since I set up this crime busting taskforce now with 21 Commonwealth agencies and state police, we've done 500 investigations. We've got 50 people before the courts. We're improving the integrity of the NDIS, so the money's getting through to the participants for whom it was designed. But we've got more announcements about NDIS and extra support to make the Scheme work better. So, that's going to take me up to Christmas. And we're doing something really exciting in government services. I mean, every week I ask how many calls we're answering, what's waiting time, payments. But we're introducing something called a Trust Exchange. It's – we call it TEx, it's where – it's at the proof of concept stage, it's where you can opt in, it's not an ID card, and you can show your MyGov app the QR code. And we want to see it being able to be used in pubs and hotels and Medicare and banks. And rather than you giving a private sector a whole lot of data, the QR code talks to the QR code that that business has. It confirms you are who you are. And all of a sudden we don't create honeypots for hackers. And so there's a lot to do and I've got a lot of people to talk to and make sure that – I want to hand over my portfolios all tied up in a bow with –
KARVELAS: Do you?
SHORTEN: Yeah, absolutely. Clearly, you know, step one, step two, it’ll be ok.
KARVELAS: Not leaving any booby traps or something in the portfolios? Just being cheeky there, sorry.
SHORTEN: No, no. I think it is important to try and fix stuff. But everyone gets replaced, that's the point. And for the last thousand days, whilst I've been a Minister and I'm grateful to Anthony Albanese for making me the Minister, I've assumed my mortality. And so therefore I've been trying to put in place systems which politician proof the Scheme. We've now got new leadership at all of the agencies where I'm involved in. We've got direction, we've got much better funding than we ever had. And so whilst neither Centrelink, nor NDIS is perfect, there's a lot of improvements still to go. There's a lot of inconsistencies. The trend is our friend.
KARVELAS: Your daughter's in the room and she's going to be here to watch you give your valedictory of course. I'm pretty sure Clementine's under 16 still, from my memory? Have you just turned 16? Clementine? Yeah. She's still under 16.
SHORTEN: She's under 16, yep.
KARVELAS: Because she was born at a similar age as Luca, my daughter. So, I know that they're a similar age. Do you think banning her from social media is a good idea?
SHORTEN: She can probably speak for herself, but I asked for it, and I said her answer would be, because I asked her this before we came in here. She said she's not thrilled by the idea, but she knows something's got to be done and she's aware that big tech companies have been mining the information of kids for their own profit and that's not acceptable. And it's not acceptable that there are so many crooks and predators online.
KARVELAS: But not thrilled with the idea? That's what young people keep saying to me, too. My daughter doesn't think it will work. That's what young people are saying, isn't it?
SHORTEN: It's – some are, yeah, absolutely.
KARVELAS: Clementine, we're about to give you the microphone. Come on, come on.
SHORTEN: Come on, it's a free country.
KARVELAS: So far, yep.
CLEMENTINE SHORTEN: Yeah, well, I 100% - well, not 100%, I’m not, I'm not thrilled with the idea.
KARVELAS: No?
CLEMENTINE: And I myself, will be 16 when it comes into place, but I think something had to be done because there's just too much that people get away with on the internet. And the big tech companies, they need to get sent a message that they can't just have all these lax regulations that allow kids to get hurt and exploited by criminals because one child hurt is one child too many.
KARVELAS: Okay, but you're still going to be able to stay on, aren't you?
CLEMENTINE: Yeah, but that's not the point.
KARVELAS: No, it's not. It's not the point.
CLEMENTINE: I gave a speech yesterday. My mum, my mum, she does a lot of work in protecting children's privacy online and she lost her voice yesterday morning. So, I just walked into school, hadn't signed in yet, I came a little bit late, but she called me up and she was like, I need you to give this speech for me. And it went really well, and – a \
KARVELAS: I think we've just launched your political career?
CLEMENTINE: Yeah. One goes out, next one goes in.
KARVELAS: Oh, my goodness. Clem, we've just launched you. I'm so glad that happened on Radio National Breakfast. That is exactly the sort of moment I was looking for. Can I just say congratulations, Bill Shorten. I have dealt with you pretty much my entire career as well. You've dealt with me your entire career. It's been a pleasure to have you in the studio so many times with me and Clem – get pre selection. Thank you.
SHORTEN: Let's get her through year 10, into year 10 first.
KARVELAS: Well, we've got to start somewhere. Thank you so much.
SHORTEN: Good on you Patricia, thank you.
CLEMENTINE: Thank you.
KARVELAS: NDIS Minister Bill Shorten and his daughter Clementine Shorten.