E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: NDIS legislation to protect participants from fraud
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good afternoon, everybody. I'm pleased to announce that today the Albanese government is launching its consultations on a new round of changes to toughen up the National Disability Insurance Scheme against people who would seek to rip the scheme off.
We are seeking to radically strengthen the regulatory powers, the criminal offences and the penalties for dodgy service providers who choose to rip off participants with severe and profound disabilities. We'll be consulting with the states and territories, people on the scheme, the people who love them, advocates and the disability sector more generally. What we seek to do is to increase the criminal penalties, the maximum penalties from $400,000 a year to in excess of $15 million, where someone has hurt or injured a participant. There's been a real loophole, where if you injure a worker at work, you can face 38 times the penalty than if you injure a participant on the scheme. And we seek to remove this loophole.
We want to give the Safeguards Commission, the watchdog, greater powers to acquire information, to extend the remit of who they can issue banning orders against into related NDIS areas, including people who promote false products online, false financial products, to people on the scheme. We're also seeking to make sure that the safeguards regulator has the power to look behind the curtain to the activities of dodgy providers in order to get the information and to empower the Safeguards Commission to be able to refer matters to criminal prosecution directly.
What we're about is making sure that the quality of the scheme improves, and we're about making sure that people on the scheme are kept safe. We will seek to do this in conjunction with the states and territories, and I'm looking forward to discussing these very important reforms with them straight away. We are determined to make sure that the NDIS is true to its original purpose. We're determined to make sure that following our record investment and significant actions already, to ban people, to catch crooks, to discourage fraud and unethical behaviour, that we make sure that the NDIS is there for future generations, is sustainable, keeping people safe and delivering quality outcomes and backing in the good providers, of whom the vast majority are. Happy to take any questions on our new tough NDIS regulations.
JOURNALIST: Minister so are these fines just for people that hurt participants? What about fraud? We saw in estimates some pretty shocking claims. What will happen to providers that are doing those sorts of things?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, we say to anyone who's rorting the scheme, some service providers engaging in unethical behaviour, pack up your business model and get the next bus out of town now. We've put it together what we call a Fraud Fusion Task Force, for the first time, 21 Commonwealth agencies, the power of the Commonwealth is now being transfixed and focused on fraud. So, we've increased the size of the Safeguards Commission from 367 people to over a thousand. So, we're already putting in tools to catch the crooks. But in addition, we will have new offences to catch some of the related operators who might be flogging false NDIS products to people, false financial products. So, there'll be a range of increased penalties. At the very top end, though, is the really fundamental issue that if you, through your misconduct, harm and hurt a vulnerable person on the scheme, well, you could be risking fines of up to $15 million if the Parliament passes these laws in the new year.
JOURNALIST: But is that mental and physical harm, or - what's the definition of sort of harming?
SHORTEN: We'll work through that; harm can come in both forms. We will consult. We will work through the definitions. But it is really ridiculous, isn't it, when we stop to think about it. It's good that if you hurt a worker going to work that we throw the book at you with massive fines. But a person on the NDIS also deserves to have the same sort of safeguards. And that's what we're doing. We're making sure that when you're on the NDIS that you're safe and that you're receiving quality support. I'm just one more question.
JOURNALIST: Sorry if this has already been asked, but $15 million is a lot of money. Obviously, individuals perhaps aren't going to be charged with $15 million worth of fines. So, who is going to be charged with that $15 million?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, this is not about minor infractions. But people who are in the NDIS business of providing services have to know that they've got to be able to do the job with quality, and they've got to make sure that people are safe. $15 million is a fine. We're just extending the range of what can be done through the courts. The courts will ultimately make decisions based on the evidence which is put before them.
But what we are doing is we are saying to Australians generally, who helped pay for the NDIS, we are saying to participants on this scheme and their families, we are saying to the many good providers, that we've got your back. We want the NDIS to be here for generations to come. The only way it can be here for generations to come is to run the bad guys out of town. And that's what we're doing.
JOURNALIST: So, you're saying you're saying that $15 million is probably more likely to be sought from corporations?
SHORTEN: Well, I'm saying it will be up to the courts to decide based on the evidence. But what we're doing is at the moment, you've got a scope where you can fine up to $400,000. We are increasing the range of the fines and penalties if the law passes the parliament. And this is a legislative message from the Parliament of Australia to the courts, that we want to give you the scope to issue much bigger fines for people who engage in egregious conduct.
At this stage already, we've got 56 people who are either in the court system or their files are on the desks of directors of public prosecution to send them to court. We've banned since I've become the Minister, over 200 people lifetime bans from operating in the sector. I love the NDIS. I bleed NDIS. I want to make sure that the people in the scheme are safe, that they are getting quality support. I want to make sure that for all the many great disability support workers that the few shonky charlatans, incompetent and negligent or dishonest people are driven out. I want to make sure that for the dodgy NDIS providers, you just go. We don't want to see you. Just get off the scheme, disappear. Go climb back under the rocks from where you came. This is not free government money. People with disability are not human ATMs, and we are going to do everything we can to make sure the NDIS is the world leading scheme and that it continues to change hundreds of thousands of lives for the better.
JOURNALIST: Minister, can you give us an update on negotiations with the states about foundational services and what's the timeline on that, given your plans for early next year?
SHORTEN: Well, the good news is my colleague Amanda Rishworth, the Minister for Social Services, is leading the discussions about foundational services with the states. No doubt we'll talk about it again at the Disability Reform Ministers Council this Friday in Adelaide.
JOURNALIST: Are they contentious discussions? There's a lot of money involved, a transfer between federal and state governments, part of what you've previously described as righting the ship of the NDIS.
SHORTEN: Well, it's important that the NDIS is not the only lifeboat in the ocean. The states and territories have proven when they're when it comes to the crunch, they're very supportive of the NDIS and including people with disabilities in Australian life. So, the states have at the regular First Ministers’ meetings, they have committed to contributing 8% increase to the cost of the scheme from 2028. They've committed to working on a 50/50 basis with the federal government on foundational supports, so it's all headed in the right direction. But we've got to work with the states and territories. I know that the Minister for Social Services has ensured there's been probably at least 100 meetings from when we've been talking to the states about foundational support.
So, you know, she's working incredibly hard, and we'll just keep working with the states and territories to make sure that when a person has a disability in this country, they've got a menu of options rather than just the full orchestra of the NDIS.
JOURNALIST: Could it be secured in this term of Parliament? A deal on foundation support?
SHORTEN: Well, we have the bones of arrangements already. The states have committed to working with us on foundational supports. It will take time, and I know that the states approach this topic with goodwill. As I know Amanda Rishworth has been leading these discussions with a high level of energy.
JOURNALIST: Peter Dutton seems to be supportive of the new NDIS funds but says you should have done it sooner. What do you make of his comments?
SHORTEN: Well, Peter Dutton's such a rear vision mirror expert about what should have been done. Why didn't they do any of this? Why did it take a Labor government to set up the Ford Fusion Task Force? Why did it take a Labor government to start clamping down on payments and making sure that we had pre-checking of claims? Why did it take a Labor government to make sure that when someone submits an invoice that we have an ABN, that we want to know what the service is, that we want to see if it's consistent with someone's plan.
Listen, I appreciate that the Liberals came to the party, albeit slowly, with our reforms, but the truth of the matter is that the Liberals like to put themselves out as the economic supermen of Australia. But for eight years, for the nine years they were in, I've never seen such a bunch of negligent babies, so naively ignoring the rorts in the scheme. But we're getting on to them, and I look forward to Mr. Dutton's ongoing support for doing the work, which, quite frankly, has only started under us. And maybe if the Liberals had picked better Ministers when they were in charge, maybe they would have worked out some of the obvious stuff in front of their nose.
JOURNALIST: Mr. Shorten, uh, a lot of conversation and debate today and yesterday around pollies and flight upgrades and things like that. Nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as it's all registered. What should the consequences be if it's not registered?
SHORTEN: Well, I think you've answered your question in your question. we're expected to declare any gifts or upgrades, and that's what happens. and should I be - I just want to be very clear about the Prime Minister. He has been diligent over many years and transparent, declaring whatever he receives, as is the standard that's expected of all of us.
JOURNALIST: Does calling Alan Joyce to ask for an upgrade, though? Pass the pub test?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, I understand that there's a book out and, you know, people want to sort of fan the flames of sales of the book. But let's go to the heart of the matter. Has the Prime Minister complied diligently, transparently, consistently, about declaring any upgrades? Yes, he has. And I know from personal experience that the Prime Minister is a fundamental believer in transparency, and he has been very transparent.
JOURNALIST: As Transport Minister though, or Shadow Transport, Qantas is one of his biggest stakeholders. Does it blur the decisions and the ethics around that?
SHORTEN: I don't know if you're sort of suggesting a transport minister shouldn't catch aeroplanes and instead should hitchhike up the Hume Highway, I don't think that's realistic. No, the Prime Minister has complied with all of the rules, and I don't think anyone says he hasn't. I mean, what I'd like to see, as we're panning around the issues is on Saturday, Queensland has elected a new Premier, David Crisafulli. I congratulate him on the great privilege of leading the great state of Queensland. But he has ruled out having nuclear power stations in Queensland. Peter Dutton has said that he wants to have nuclear power stations in Queensland. Peter Dutton's nuclear energy scheme is, I'm afraid to say, dead on arrival. I mean, who's right? The Premier of Queensland or the leader of the opposition? They both can't be right.
JOURNALIST: Have you ever spoken with an airline boss about a flight upgrade?
SHORTEN: No. Do you mean Mr. Joyce? No. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.