E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: NDIS legislation to protect participants from fraud
MATTHEW PANTELIS, HOST: The Federal Government, announcing changes to the NDIS to refer suspected fraudsters to police. These are people who hear the words, or the letters NDIS and the cash register rings up in their eyes, and rip offs occur to the tune of thousands of dollars in cases, maybe even more. It shouldn't be allowed. It's been happening. It happens across the board where taxpayer money is concerned. Let's have a chat to the NDIS Minister, Bill Shorten, who is on the line. This is good news for people who'd want to hear exactly this. We've been talking about this for so long. The people who are scamming taxpayers through the NDIS, it needs to end?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Absolutely. I don't think there's much lower in life than someone who rips off a person with a profound or severe disability, and someone who rips off a taxpayer. The days of viewing the NDIS as a government honeypot are well and truly over. Today I'm announcing consultation on further tougher changes to the scheme, to strengthen the powers of the watchdog. What it means is that we will be able to have higher penalties, so a maximum of $400,000 will go to in excess of $15 million, where a participant is hurt or injured under a provider's care. You know, what we're doing is treating people under the NDIS the same you treat them under workers comp laws, Under WH, work health safety legislation, the value of a worker's life is valued in some jurisdictions at 38 times the value of an NDIS participant’s. And that stops.
PANTELIS: Yeah, absolutely. And it should, this should send the message to people who are, who are thinking of ripping off, well, essentially, as I said, the taxpayer, this can't continue. It just can't?
SHORTEN: We've already put in a whole new task force to catch the crooks. I have to say, I was shocked when I became Minister. Just, you know, the welcome mat was at the back door of the scheme for people to come and help themselves to the NDIS kitchen. Most participants are doing the right thing. Most providers are doing the right thing. It's changing hundreds of thousands of lives. But unfortunately, you know, in the first 8 or 9 years of the scheme, there's been a naivety, to put it generously, naivety that where there's government money, you've got to expect rogues and scoundrels to turn up and try and help themselves. So, we've put in new fraud detection methods. We've put in more resources to investigate complaints. Get this. There wasn't you could put in a claim between 5 and 6:30 p.m. under the previous government, and it would never be checked.
PANTELIS: What happened there? So, what, just no -
SHORTEN: Just asleep at the wheel. Just, you know, I'll be honest, you had some Ministers who viewed the NDIS as an inferior portfolio, or maybe they were, you know, in the departure lounge, a political life and just, you know, moseying along, just, you know, good old boys and girls asleep. So, we the last two and a half years we've been investing in new it more people. And we're also focusing on the quality of outcome for participants. So, this is not about a participant not getting what they deserve. On the contrary, we want to make sure that this scheme is true to its original purpose. But we are, this next round of legislation which will be hopefully agreed by all parties, I hope even the Greens work this one out, early next year and get it through before the election.
PANTELIS: Yeah, absolutely needs to. Does this crack down to the lowest extent where, for instance, if you need to buy, I don't know, a shower chair as an NDIS user and you say it's NDIS, and suddenly it's up 30%. Are we cracking down to that level?
SHORTEN: We have, I managed to find $5 million for the ACCC, that's the sort of competition watchdog. It is now illegal for a service provider to offer an identical service or product to a person on the scheme for more money than off the scheme.
PANTELIS: Yeah. Good. Can this be – it's a different portfolio, but this needs to happen in aged care as well. Where exactly the same sort of rorts occur?
SHORTEN: Wherever there's government money, governments can't be naive. But I do want to say this. I'm not critical of participants. You know, in my experience, 99.9% of the participants are straight up and down, they have a disability they've never asked for and never wanted, and this is about them having fulfilling lives. So, when we talk about the crackdown, also, I've got to say most service providers and most disability care workers, they put their heart and soul into it. You know, they're getting, I don't know, 30 bucks an hour to look after someone and keep them safe and give them a sense of social engagement. So, most people are doing the right thing. One of the tricky things when talking about the crackdowns is you don't want to give everyone a bad name, but you don't want to be Pollyanna and pretend that everything's brilliant when it's not. We're just trying to thread the needle of truth.
PANTELIS: Yeah. And the other thing, too. Cancellation fees. This, this is just outrageous. Where you cancel a massage, for instance, and it costs $120 to cancel. That shouldn't be happening?
SHORTEN: Absolutely not. Like, again, this goes back to the situation. If you are a service provider, maybe an allied health professional. And again, I must always say most of them are just amazing, lovely people. But don't charge your NDIS participant more than you charge all your other customers. Merely because there's a price guide that says you can charge up to a certain fee, it doesn't make the maximum the minimum you charge. Just, you know, if mum's struggling with a kid with high developmental needs and has to choose between the school interview or having to cancel a service within 24 hours or 48 hours, don't charge mum and the kid, you know, the 90% of the fee. It's just not on.
PANTELIS: Yeah. Has that been cracked down on?
SHORTEN: Yep.
PANTELIS: Same thing. Okay.
SHORTEN: But I'm sure it's still going on. And every time I do an interview like this, I get the odd angry email from a service provider that says I'm demonizing them. I'm not demonizing service providers, but I just don't view people with disability on the NDIS as human ATMs.
PANTELIS: Yeah, well, that's the thing. And I'm sure, as you say, most people do the right thing. But there are some and they're the ones who are spoiling it. As always, no matter what it is for everybody else.
SHORTEN: Well, you know, as one of my favourite American TV actors once said to a crook, do you feel lucky?
PANTELIS: All right, well, hopefully this makes a difference. Bill Shorten, thank you for your time.
SHORTEN: Cheers, mate. Bye.