E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Bill Shorten, welcome to the program. Will NDIS participants have less choice and control under these changes?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: No, not at all. Listen, I couldn't help but obviously listen to the analysis of the panel. I just, three or four things which we've just got to get straight here from the outset. There are more people going to be on the Scheme this week than there were last week. We will invest more in people with disability on the Scheme this week than last week. What we're going to see with this legislation is returning the Scheme to its original intent. The reality is that for nine years before I became the Minister for people with disability were a secondary consideration in the NDIS. The Scheme is changing lives. I mean, I guess, why on earth would your panel talk about good news? That's not what sells, but there's a lot of good news in this Scheme. But the problem is, when I became minister, I realised that things were far worse than could possibly be imagined. There are too many service providers who are rorting and overcharging. That's not the majority of service providers, but the reality is that there were some individuals making a lot of money out of the Scheme, and outcomes and needs are people with disability were being ignored. But I do not agree that the few people you heard there represent the entire voice of all 661,000 people in their families and 400,000 people working in the industry. We have been working on this legislation, and the case for it really since day one, two and a half years ago. For as many people who say this legislation is rushed. Other people say, why don't we just get on with stuff? So we had the biggest review talking to people with disability that we've ever seen. 10,000 people and thousands of submissions. I've done 18 town halls personally, with tens of thousands of people present, both online. And what we want to do is make sure that the Scheme is there for future generations, but we're also making sure that people know what they can spend their money on. I mean, the greatest fiction that I've heard is that somehow this Government has invented a list of what you can spend your money on. There's always been a list.
SPEERS: Well, I'll come to that. There's always been a list of reasonable and necessary principles, not a list of what you can and can't specifically –
SHORTEN: – no that's not right, David. There's been operational guidelines in the agency.
SPEERS: Yeah guidelines. Now we're talking about what you can and can't.
[crosstalk]
SPEERS: Yeah, but it's not a specific list that articulates what you can and can't –
SHORTEN: Let’s clear it up right now, the problem with the, one of the problems for the NDIS is you practically need a PhD in its language. It's such a jargon heavy issue. There's been operational guidelines saying what planners are allowed to give people and let them spend their money and what they're not. But the problem is those lists have been ignored sometimes. And so most people are doing the right thing.
SPEERS: You're not seriously saying those guidelines are the same as the list that you've now put out?
SHORTEN: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah I am.
SPEERS: All right. Well, this, this new list. It's a draft list at the moment –
SHORTEN: – Well, no, no. Again, we're going to just correct the language here. It's a list which has the weight of a parliamentary regulation now. It's been an operational guideline. But, you know, this is, the Greens have just caused more misinformation and anxiety raising. I mean, they've never seen a political challenge in Australia where they don't want to just cause anxiety. And I get that the disability sector does not want to go back. But this Government had three options: scrap it, a la the Coorey Doctrine, do nothing, a la the Green Doctrine, or just make it – better outcomes for people with more clarity.
SPEERS: In fairness to Phil, I don't think he's saying scrap –
SHORTEN: No, no, I know that. Just to pick up on the panel.
SPEERS: Just on the list, so this this new list now says that you can't, for example, claim for a washing machine or a dishwasher. Some of the participants are worried about that. They point out people with a disability often do need particularly specialised equipment. So is it a guideline or is it a hard and fast rule? How will this work?
SHORTEN: Well, the problem in the past is it's just been a guideline. So it's been interpreted differently by different people. When we give it the force of a regulation, it becomes easier to enforce.
SPEERS: So it is, it is going to be enforced?
SHORTEN: Well let’s use two examples, washing machines and dishwashers, the Act says. And the Act has always said that if services are provided by mainstream systems, it's not something the NDIS does, but in addition, what we've said is there are things which you can spend your supports on, which are reasonable and necessary, and give you choice and control. With household items, there are some household items which can be modified to make it easier for a person with a disability to use. They'll still be allowed. But this idea that, and I just want to clear up, that everyone can head down to Bing-Lee or Harvey Norman and get yourself a washing machine on the Scheme. That's not right. And that's never been right.
SPEERS: So, okay to be clear, you can still apply for a particular washing machine?
SHORTEN: It's in the substitute. Well, I don't know about washing machines and your particular disability, but what I do know is that if you have a particular need and the item is not on the list, but that there's a way which it supports you with your disability, well, then there'll be a substitution provision allowed that's in the Act. There is more misinformation being peddled by the extremists. I mean, really my challenge back to that, to, you know, to the Green political party and, and the others causing this fear and misinformation, is your plan was to keep driving past the rorts. Your plan was to keep ignoring the lack of a payment system.
SPEERS: Let's talk about your plan because the explanatory memorandum to your Bill suggests there aren't special circumstances for things on this list. This morning, you're saying there are –
SHORTEN: – there's a substitution clause.
SPEERS: Okay, so just to be clear for people, there's a lot of people who have raised these issues about the list. There's substitution clauses for everything on the list?
SHORTEN: Well there's a substitution clause not for everything on the list, but for people's individual needs. Like, again, but someone said, oh, this legislation has been rushed. The legislation was presented on March the 29th.
SPEERS: You made changes just the other day to get it through Parliament?
SHORTEN: Let's go to that issue of making changes. If we hadn't changed anything, we'd be accused of being arrogant. But somehow, if we make changes, that's also like, where's the fine line here? It's invisible to the naked eye. The reality is that we listen to the states and territories and we improve their co-governance protection.
SPEERS: But I just want to be clear on this. If there's, if there's someone who looks at that list, they're worried, there is a substitution clause you're saying that they can apply and say, I need that for my disability –
SHORTEN: – based on individual circumstances. We're not going to do, here's a classic. Let me use a classic example. You might need a smartwatch because it sort of regulates your temperature. You've got a particular condition that, you know, if your temperature starts really fluctuating, you're in trouble. That's fine. Come and talk to the agency about that. But we're not going to say everyone gets a smartwatch. And somewhere along the line, as we talk about change, I respect the people with disability are anxious. But this we're budgeting going forward that this Scheme will increase in cost. But there is a problem out there and most people watching this show know it. Some service providers have been having a lend, but there has been price inflation. And you know that's payment systems. We've now legislated for the first time a payment system. We haven't even had the ability to investigate invoices. And so we're seeing rorts –
SPEERS: And, and if someone if someone wrongly buys something, claims something, they can now be issued with a debt? Is there the capacity to appeal against that?
SHORTEN: Yeah. Like first of all, there's always been provisions against people wrongly claiming, what we're actually doing is making sure that people know what they can claim and not claim beforehand. A trip to Japan is not allowed.
SPEERS: Sure, but the dishwasher or washing machine is out. I get some of these, you know, some of these examples are extreme. A trip to Japan.
SHORTEN: Sorry, you're using examples one way. I guess I'm the one who sees – do you know there's 400,000 transactions a day which we pay on the Scheme?
SPEERS: The question was, if they're issued a debt, can they appeal that?
SHORTEN: Yes, what's more. No, but let's go further. The current Act wouldn't take into account one of the grounds for a waiver of the debt being a person's disability. We've put that in. So we're actually being a lot more realistic about the real world. But the truth of the matter is that we've seen what we call our plans being exhausted prematurely. If you get a two year plan and all of a sudden a plan is exhausted in the first five weeks because some intermediary said, spend your money, it'll be automatically topped up. You see, my obligation, my obligation is to everyone who's doing the right thing on the Scheme. The dilemma with this reform is as simple as this. We just need to tell the truth. The truth is, this Scheme is very good. It's the best in the world and we are investing more in people with disability. The other concern is also it's not working properly for some people, so we need better decision making. And there are rorts and shonks going on. And just because some people don't want me to talk about it, I will.
SPEERS: The other concern that's been raised this week is about the shift from unregistered to registered providers.
SHORTEN: Yeah.
SPEERS: You know, some people say, look, I'm very comfortable with the person who comes and helps me get out of bed, shower, whatever it is. I don't want to go with a new person I don't know.
SHORTEN: Sure. Well, we're not automatically, we're not going to change that. But on the other hand, what's wrong with asking that? Everyone who's driving someone that we see their driver's licence and that they've got car insurance. What's wrong with asking that? If you're going to work with kids that you've got to working with children's check. In fact, what's wrong with asking, are you a real person and do you exist? What? I mean, the reality is that we, um, the Fraud Fusion Task Force, which I set up earlier in my piece, investigated the 900 of the smallest plan managers. These are people who manage people's plans. They gave the anonymised data to the Australian Tax Office. 343 or so came back. They've never declared any income. So I we don't have a system in Australia where you can choose to have a driver's license or not. The registration will be principles based. We've released it. It's been commissioned by human rights lawyer, commissioned by me using human rights lawyer Natalie Wade. It'll be light, medium and heavy. But if you're doing complicated tasks which go to people's safety, I want to make sure that the person doing it can actually do that job.
SPEERS: You've already made some savings through the crackdown on fraud and so on over the last financial year, I think $600 million was the latest figure of savings that you've found. You've got some new figures that will come out a little later this week, I think. Will it be more than 600 million?
SHORTEN: Yeah, I think the budget forecast for the Scheme was $42.4 billion. I'm optimistic that just because we're running the Scheme better and more transparently, we're eliminating some of that bloated waste. And so I'm optimistic it might even come in with a lower figure, a better figure than 600 million less than we foresaw. But before you start, before I start getting SMS’s and trolled by a sort of very active minority, this is not a cut. The reality is that last year the Scheme cost in the mid towards the $3,536 billion. It's still going to cost more this year. Under the Liberals in their last year, the Scheme grew by 23% in cost and 15% more participants. What we've managed to do, even without this legislation, is the number of participants growing in the Scheme has gone up by 8% and the cost of the Scheme growth is still too high at 18%. We're just running the Scheme better with better people.
SPEERS: But are you? I mean, the savings no doubt have come through some of those crackdowns but …
SHORTEN: Well, cost reductions.
SPEERS: The latest quarterly report also shows some sharp drops on performance. The number of plans approved on time fell from just over 50% to about 23%. The number of plan amendments done on time fell from 63 to 39%.
SHORTEN: There is the simple explanation for that. David, what's happened is the some of the people who have been living high on the hog, some of the service providers and some of the intermediaries, and they're a very good providers, intermediaries, let me say, before they bomb me with their texts, they've their words out. This is not going to be the easy ride that it once was with a lack of scrutiny. And so we've been flooded with a whole lot of variations in claims, which has increased the overall number by about 100%. So yes, what that means is that it's taking us longer to process them because we're getting a whole lot of extra claims because people realise that it's the end of the free drinks. And so that will invariably affect waiting times, but all of that will trend down in the next quarter. All right.
SPEERS: The foundational supports we talked about those a little earlier. They're due to start July next year. You know kids in particular with autism or developmental delays that don't end up on the NDIS. That's not far off 10 months until they're due to start. Can you tell us what they're going to look like? Who's going to decide who goes on to what Scheme? How far along are these plans?
SHORTEN: Well, language is important and some of the people who've been scaremongering obviously don't give a stuff about causing anxiety, but I'm not going to be one of them. So you said in that opening question, uh, that we're introducing foundational support so kids don't end up on the NDIS. At the moment –
SPEERS: No, I said for kids who don't end up on the NDIS.
SHORTEN: Sorry, I'm glad I clarified that then. So when your precious child has a non-standard developmental journey at the moment the option is sort of NDIS or nothing. What we want to do is build out a menu of support. See one of the problems with the NDIS is it sort of pays for hours of individual service and families have been forgotten. So we want to foundational support to might include, for example, building more peer to peer family supports. Nothing is better for a family with a child with a non-standard developmental journey to talking to another family who's been through the same thing.
SPEERS: So who's going to decide which one they go on?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, what we want to do is introduce our lead practitioners where when you've got a question, often when you've got a new baby or a new family. Who do you go to at least for? You know, in Australia we've had maternal and child health nurses for sort of some issues. So the review's recommended that we develop lead practitioners so you can go to someone and just say, all right, this is my beautiful child, where do you recommend? But what we also need to do, other than just have navigators and lead practitioners who could be embedded in the community, um, then you need to know what their options are. Amanda Rishworth, my colleague, the Minister for Social Services, is working day in and day out with the states to develop a range of early intervention services outside the Scheme because not every child needs the full NDIS service. But my message to this is: I want to leave the politicians and the Greens and all the other sort of social media warriors out of the way. My message to parents is this: if your child needs the NDIS, you're going to get it. I've spent my whole 17 years in Parliament fighting for the NDIS, and the reason why, perhaps I've sounded a little passionate today, is I listen to the people who say do nothing, change is too hard. These people are dangerous because if we don't do something about the cost growth, there will be no NDIS.
SPEERS: Okay, look, we could keep going on the NDIS and we'll talk more about it, I'm sure, between now and the start of July. But I want to get you on a few other things if I can? Um, in Parliament all week, the Coalition was pressing the Government pretty hard on the visas issue to Palestinians fleeing Gaza. Could you just explain to us what the Government's position is on supporters of Hamas? Do they pass the character test? Are you happy to see people who rhetorically support Hamas enter the country?
SHORTEN: Well. I don't think Hamas is worth supporting, but people coming from Gaza, I don't know. I've never had the misfortune to live under a terrorist regime. I don't know, David, if you lived in Gaza and you had to do a survey when you might depend on your food, and the government does a survey and say, do you support Hamas? I don't know what you'd say, David? But you’d probably weigh up the interests of your family. The reality is the Hamas question is, I think, superseded by the way the governments of both sides have handled this issue, which is, uh, is someone a security risk? The reality is that 7100 visa applications have been rejected. Of the 2900 or so which have been accepted, 1300 people have come to Australia. We're just following the procedures and the rules which have been set in place. But let's go to the other point. You said in your opening of your question, the Opposition have been raising this. Do you know since last Wednesday, a week ago, the 8th of August, the Opposition has had the opportunity to ask 44 questions to hold the Government to account. Do you know how many of the 44 questions have just been on these 1300 people?
SPEERS: I think all of them.
SHORTEN: 44. And let's call out the deflection here. We've got a cost of living crisis in this country. The opposition aren't dumb, they're pretty cunning.
SPEERS: I understand the political point you want to make here, but …
SHORTEN: Well, then let me make it, because not everyone's as telepathic as you. The point is, um, they don't, they want to ask us questions on Gaza. The mob, the people out there, the citizens of Australia. They don't hear the Opposition question. They just hear us answering questions on Gaza. So as a tactic it's pretty cunning, but it's a low rent, low road path when people are struggling with their mortgages.
SPEERS: And finally, Labor's drubbing in the Northern Territory, the election yesterday saw them turfed out of office. Are there danger signs there for Federal Labor, do you think?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, congratulations to the CLP. They campaigned well and have won the confidence of Territorians. So congratulations. Listen, you're a mug if you say there's never any federal implication. But in preparation for this question, I rang a lot of my friends in the territory. They said it was a crime election. They said Labor got pinched. Crime on the right. But on the left. The greenies, the zealots, the usual, you know, soapbox fanatics. They're all just for them. It's only about fracking and nothing else. So in the Territory, they have big tides, big tidal movements. The tide goes out, big tide comes in big. And I'd say we saw a Territory political tide.
SPEERS: Yet the federal election, presumably early next year. You're recontesting?
SHORTEN: It's my aim to keep fighting as long as I can on the causes which I want to.
SPEERS: That means running again?
SHORTEN: Sure. At this stage. Absolutely.
SPEERS: At this stage?
SHORTEN: Well, David, I'm pretty sure the sun will come up tomorrow, and I'm pretty sure that on Monday or tomorrow I'll be talking NDIS.
SPEERS: I'm sure you will. Bill Shorten, thanks very much for joining us.