E&OE TRANSCRIPT
MURAL HALL DOORSTOP 11:15AM
WEDNESDAY 21st AUGUST 2024
SUBJECTS: NDIS Legislation update; NDIS supports consultation
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: First of all, I'd just like to read out directly a brief statement, a joint statement, from myself on behalf of the Albanese Government and the South Australian Premier, Peter Malinauskas, in his role as chair of the Council of the Australian Federation. The Albanese Labor Government and the Council of the Australian Federation CAF have in the past 24 hours agreed to significant changes to enhance co-governance arrangements, rulemaking and approval processes of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, NDIS. These are the first and most significant co-governance changes since the inception of the Scheme a decade ago. The Albanese Government and CAF have agreed to a number of proposed amendments to the NDIS bill currently in the Senate that will strengthen how states and territories work together with the Commonwealth on NDIS reforms. Once the legislation is made law specifically, there has been an agreement to introduce faster timeframes for approving NDIS rules. A new dispute resolution approach to escalate issues to First Ministers. And a move from unanimous to majority. First Minister support for any rules with any significant impacts for people with disability and Governments. These changes fully respond to the concerns originally raised by CAF on the legislation. These changes will also ensure Scheme sustainability that is protected in the short to medium term and protect the national cabinet decision to achieve the 8% growth target. Critically, this agreement secures the support of the states and territories for the Government's legislation and reform agenda and will help ensure that the Scheme is here for future generations of Australians. I'm happy to take any questions.
JOURNALIST: Yes. Premiers were also concerned. You particularly mentioned still that uncertainty regarding cost. Are they any clearer now regarding if they're going to be up for beyond the legislation in the next couple of years?
SHORTEN: Um, this statement is about amendments, which we presented to the Senate last night. More of the issues about costs will be worked through with CAF, but the point is that CAF put in a submission saying they didn't want us to move ahead with the legislation. Some of you have reported this with great interest. Um, the point today is that through the engagement of the Commonwealth with the premiers and I credit Premier Rockliff and Premier Malinauskas for coming to visit me in Moonee Ponds to talk through the issues the Commonwealth Government respects that the states are co-governors of the Scheme. There's been a lot of anxiety. First and foremost, I just say to people with disability and participants, the message is that the states and the federal Government are getting their act together and that people with disability and participants are not a political football. In other words, the legitimate expectation of Australians, the different levels of Government can come together to sort out issues in the best interests of their people. As this has been accomplished, so the amendments which were presented last night reflect the arrangements which have been negotiated. Um, the states are anxious that somehow a whole lot of people on the NDIS would end up just being the responsibility of the state. That was never the intent and they are satisfied that is not the intent. The Federal Government wanted to make sure that the states played their part. Um, and we are satisfied that the undertakings from the states and their proposals also do that before the. Sorry. Thank you. Um, before the winter break, you put an estimate on.
JOURNALIST: The cost to the Commonwealth from the delay to this bill. Do you have an estimate on the benefit to the Commonwealth from the passage of the bill?
SHORTEN: In dollar terms? Well, I certainly did have the view that the delay was going to cost taxpayers, not the Commonwealth. It's your taxes. It's everyone's taxes. And, um, I regret that we couldn't get to an earlier resolution, but we're there now in terms of the benefits of the Scheme. We think this will improve the legislation, will improve the participant experience. We want to make sure that participants know what they can use their NDIS money on and what they can't. We want to make sure that participants aren't being gained by some providers or some disability intermediaries to get automatic top ups, they're encouraged to spend their money prematurely. We're also in this legislation improving some of what we can do about waste. I think also, crucially, as a participant on the Scheme is in Australia, they're not a Commonwealth person or a state person, they're just a person, they're a human being, and so what we are doing is improving the governance of the Scheme. The Commonwealth's making it clear that, you know, the important decisions they've made at the Premiers of the National Cabinet, with Prime Minister Albanese to commit to an 8% target, the important commitments they've made to engage in foundational supports for people outside the Scheme. This is another step forward. But the Scheme, and indeed for people with disability and their families, it all works better when you don't have the feds and the states arguing. And I congratulate Premier Malinauskas and Rockliff and CAF, and we've come up with some legitimate compromises.
JOURNALIST: The First Peoples Disability Network had come out overnight, and they've said that this bill could potentially have, um, you know, unintended ramifications for First Nations people said senators have a moral obligation. That's their words to not support it. What do you make of that?
SHORTEN: They're entitled to their opinion, but their fears are unfounded. And since I came in as the minister, we've appointed the first deputy CEO of the Scheme for indigenous People. Janine Mohamed, who was one of the nominees for Australian of the year, is now working at the agency as the number two, the most senior indigenous person to ever serve in the NDIS history. We've set up new consultation networks. They know we're fair dinkum. Uh, I would also say that we've appointed a the first ever indigenous director on the board of the NDIS. Doctor Richard Fejo, and there's an amendment to the legislation which will make sure that there is always a presence of a First Nations person on the board. So in the leadership, we're doing it in the co-design we're doing it. The issues about access for people with First Nations backgrounds is to make sure they can actually access the Scheme. So what we want to do is deliver new ways of services so that if you get a package or a budget, that you're actually able to use it. So I just say to the First Nations network, who I've worked with on and off with for about 16 years, understand you're concerned. And to all people with disability, you're hearing worrying things. The reality is that what we are doing is securing the future of the Scheme, and that is what matters.
JOURNALIST: Disability support workers are protesting today saying the NDIA isn't doing enough to stamp out wage theft. What are you doing to stop them getting ripped off?
SHORTEN: Well, the same people who put out the press release have been meeting with me on a regular basis since I became Minister. Unlike my predecessors, I meet with unions. I don't think that our unions should be outside the tent. And just as I met with service providers, I think there is a problem that uh, some people are not being paid properly. I brought in, uh, an ex industrial relations commissioner and an ex secretary of a non-disability related union to do some work. I've set up the first ever disability dialogue, which gets advocates the voice of people with disability, uh, unions and service providers in the room to talk through issues. Uh, since we've been in the wages of disability support workers have increased approximately 15%. Uh, but there's no excuse for people. And the problem I think that they're specifically talking about is that we might receive an invoice which says that a disability support worker is being paid, you know, X dollars. But the truth is they're only getting Y dollars. So we're being inappropriately invoiced. And the people whose labor is being which we're paying for a larger dollar figure. The worker isn't getting that. So we are absolutely lifting our vigilance and payment systems scrutiny, and we'll keep working with the unions. They also have a um, another issue which they're taking through the Fair Work Commission about the appropriate categorisation of some of the workers in the Scheme, and we'll see where that lands.
JOURNALIST: Minister, can I just ask about that? So one of the things that that seems to have come out of the should we call it the Moonee Ponds Accord with your colleagues, is that you now need a majority rather than absolute veto. Absolute veto. What's the significance of that? And how do you think that's going to affect how changes are made?
SHORTEN: Well, let's also just acknowledge the Prime Minister himself has been engaged in this process talking with the premiers. So this is a whole of Government effort. Um, when the Scheme was originally set up, it gave every state a veto. Right on changes. There are about 80 Category A rules. And without sort of taking you down the rabbit hole of the whole legislation, a category A rule would require the consent of all eight states and territories in the Commonwealth. Um, we've said to Premier Malinauskas and he said back to us, we that's a cumbersome process, so let's at least just make it five so the states don't feel they're going to get something jammed through. Um, their concern was that we would just do everything by federal ministerial diktat and that they would have no say. So we've sort of landed on a five out of eight rule rather than an eight out of rule or no say at all. Um, so that is a development. I've certainly briefed the Liberal Party. Um, they see this as they've told me, that they see this as constructive. And hopefully the amendments which have been presented to the Parliament last night, we voted by the Senate in the next day, and we can get them back to the House of reps and provide certainty and just get on with it for people with disability service providers and of course, um, sustainability.
JOURNALIST: Are there rule changes that are now more likely because of this change?
SHORTEN: Yeah, we've got a, the reality is that Commonwealth state relations are vexed and they're vexed. Whoever's in power, um, states are feeling constraints on their budgets. Federal Government also wants to make sure that we're getting value for our investments. Um, what this means for people with disability is that their respective levels of Government have said, alright, we agree with the general direction of the NDIS review which Labor commissioned. We think there should be foundational supports. We think that all of us should be contributing to that. And it's also the states saying, all right, we don't want to unnecessarily bureaucratically hold up propositions. There's no one day where this Scheme gets better. But the passing of the legislation is basically the construction of the scaffolding, which will allow us to go and co-design new needs, assessment tools, new budget tools. It will allow us to conclude, you know, resolve our consultation with people with disability about a list of what you can spend money on, and a list of what you can't spend money on. Like this will always be a work in progress, but as we've seen, we're committed to making sure the Scheme's here for the future. It's growing at an unsustainable rate. Really, where I hope we get to by the end of this week is people are going to get a clear steer. How do we make sure there's not, uh, automatic top ups of plans spent exhausted early? How do we make sure that we know what we're allowed to spend money on and what we're not? At the same time, we've been doing all this work, we've received the registration task force, which is for those of you who have been following it as intimately as others. A proposal that says that most service providers in the index should be registered. At the same time, we've been keeping going on with our fraud investigations and upgrading our payment systems in the back office of the Scheme. The aim is to be able to assure people on the Scheme it's there for the future that it's fair, equitable and transparent. The other aim we have is that we're building a support for Australians with disability who don't need the NDIS, but there is something there for them so they can have fulfilling lives. So I might just go to some people who haven't had one question yet. And then Mr. Shorten, how much longer do you think you need on that sustainability question? Could the cost growth be brought in in this term, brought back under control in this term, or would it flow after the election? Well, you might have um, well, hopefully you noticed, but maybe not. Um, the agency put out its fourth quarterly report for the last financial year, and it revealed that we've the forecast of, uh, what we thought the Scheme was going to cost for financial year 2324. We've come in $600 million lower. There's an afsa. The annual financial statement of the Scheme will be presented to the board next week. And of course, when it's presented to the board, we will release that. And who knows, maybe that will show some financial improvement too. Just to be clear though, there'll be some disability advocates who, if they think we're spending less than we thought we'd spend, they equate that to a cut. The Scheme has increased in number of people on the Scheme from last year and in outlay of what we've spent, but generally we are seeing a moderating a lower than forecast growth in the Scheme in terms of outlays, and we'll see what is produced next week in our NDIA board statement.
JOURNALIST: And then you manage to get both the state premiers on board and Pauline Hanson, which I'd imagine is no easy feat. What does this mean about the need for this Scheme ended and its future going forward?
Speaker1: The Scheme is supported by just about all political parties and most politicians, because we all live in the real world and we know people who are on the Scheme and we know families for whom it's changing their lives. This Scheme is an investment. But we also hear stories of, you know, some service providers, a minority having a lend of it, or we hear of things or price gouging or all of a sudden you say you're on the NDIS and the price goes up and you know, so we we hear two things about the Scheme. It's doing a lot of good, but it does need some tightening up to make sure money's not getting wasted or you know, it's true to purpose and getting to the people who deserve it. So I think the political consensus in this country, and I acknowledge the constructive discussions I've had with the liberals, is if we can straighten it up and get it to a rate of growth which is not as large as it is now, people say that's a good thing. If we can make sure that it's delivering quality services to people, they'll say, that's a good thing. If we're going to make sure that people aren't just whacking an I love NDIS sticker on their truck, they're actually accountable for the service behind that. A question up the back.
JOURNALIST: [inaudible] Do you believe that we should have a dedicated Disability Minister?
SHORTEN: Just before I answer that, I need to check if that's a division. Thank you. I think what you've got now is you've got a couple of disability ministers. Amanda Rishworth is running our national disability strategy. Um, uh, Murray Watt has disability employment programs, and, of course, I'm involved with the NDIS. Uh, disability is a whole of Government process. So I'm less worried about having one person in charge than making sure that the whole Government's engaged. What I don't want is disability, just to be viewed as the last press release in a budget announcement. Disability is any of us at any time or anyone we love. So, you know, I hear that call. I think at the moment disability is right at the front of the political agenda, and that's under the current structure. So rather than worry about ministerial titles, it's about are we making a difference to the quality of services, to the outcomes we're getting for the Scheme. Are we making sure that kids are getting looked after in school? Are we making sure that hospitals are coping and understanding that a patient with a disability, uh, needs the appropriate treatment? So for me, it's outcomes rather than structures.
JOURNALIST: So you said the states anxieties have been addressed. Um, high among them was support. Foundational supports actually are and what they look like. Has there been an in-principle agreement as to what those are going to be?
SHORTEN: Yeah, we've got a timetable to start rolling out our foundational services from 1st July next year. Um, Amanda is helping coordinate that work with the Department of Social Services. I think that the states are worried that we'll reach a particular date and foundations aren't established. It's not our intention to roll out some of our new assessment tools and budget planning until we have some foundational services, so that's a matter of all of us working together. We're not at the destination that you're asking about yet, but our aim is to be a lot closer to it by 1st July of next year, and this will be a topic for the National Cabinet in December. How we go in developing new rules, new assessment tools, new budget planning. But we've got to do that by co-design. So yeah, it's going to take a little while, but we're not rushing. And the states I think are getting the message there on a particular date, somehow the world changes for them because it won't. We are projecting growth in the Scheme going forward. We're projecting people on it. We just want to start focusing on quality outcomes on the person rather than which vehicle delivers the support.
JOURNALIST: When will the states have modelling on this? Will it be before July 1st? And what about the inter-governmental agreement regarding the 4 to 8% cap? Do you have an idea of when that's going to be?
SHORTEN: Yeah, you know today I'm just going to talk about the statement and the pledge. Um, I'm not going to be able to give you every answer about the next three years.
JOURNALIST: Do you know when you're going to do that?
SHORTEN: Not today. Today is about what some of you have been breathlessly writing, that the states aren't going to work with us, it's war. Well, you need a new, you're going to need a new heading. We're getting on with it.
JOURNALIST: Just when this legislation, if it passes tomorrow as expected, there are folks in the community who are really worried that under the new lists, they're not going to be able to access period products that might really help them.
SHORTEN: I'm glad you asked that. I want to go to that.
JOURNALIST: Yeah. Is that, I guess, what is your message to those people? And is that something that could be reconsidered?
SHORTEN: First of all, an apology. The draft, this is about putting out a list, which, by the way, no Government has done before. It's no good deed goes unpunished. We're the first ones to put it out and consult. But I think there was very poor wording which put some products under, um, uh, livelihood, lifestyle, and that's obviously just rubbish. Uh, we've never paid for those products beforehand, though, let's be clear on that. But since the original lists were worked up a decade ago, there's been really good developments in how some women's menstrual products can be specifically designed for disability, and in those circumstances, people will be able to access that, and the legislation we put in the amendments are to help clear that point up.
JOURNALIST: Do you have an actual figure in terms of the wastage box that you mentioned?
SHORTEN: It’s hard to estimate the amount of waste in the Scheme. As I say, telling the truth about the Scheme seems to upset people. On one hand, if we say that it's changing a lot of lives, there'll be some people raise their fists at the TV tonight and say, oh, but I know someone who shouldn't be getting it or their kid doesn't deserve it. And on the other hand, when you say that there is some waste in the Scheme, other people will raise their fists and say, are you trashing people with disability? The truth is in between. The truth is that the NDIS is a great Scheme. Australia as a country is investing more per capita in profoundly and severely impaired Australians with personal budgets than any other nation on the planet. That's something we should all be proud of, but we can make the Scheme better and there are problems in the Scheme. And we are, and basically we're taking a multifaceted approach from morning to night, clean up the fraud, get better payment systems, get better people in running the NDIA. We've put more people into the NDIA, create a lot more co-design. Um, we've had the review listened to. There was 10,000 people consulted, 4000 submissions, 2000 hours on registration. We all know that it's ridiculous that only 7% of providers are registered, but we're still retaining choice in control. So I can't estimate the level of waste. What I can estimate is that we can restrain the growth of the Scheme to about 8%, and people will actually get better outcomes, better quality, better accountability. And that's what it's all about. The actual figures, in terms of the wastage for about 5.8 million people, if I understand what you're asking, can I give you a figure on how much money is getting wasted? Yes, because if you had a clock, if I knew where all the waste, you know, if I knew where all the waste was, we would stop it. Um, but I'm confident that, you know, there's 1 to $2 billion at least, which we can shave off, which doesn't affect people's packages, which doesn't affect quality, which doesn't affect people's access to the Scheme. But I know there's overcharging going on. I know there are some providers who are putting in false invoices, and if we can clean up that, that will help contribute to it. And we haven't waited for this legislation. The fact that our forecast came in $600 million below what was anticipated, shows that already things are improving. Yeah. All right. Last question.
JOURNALIST: You've outlined a pretty long process here. You've been in Parliament a long time. How much longer do you see yourself being the one representing the Commonwealth Ministry once this has passed?
SHORTEN: No one's entitled to be here unless the people elect you. One's future here, and no one's entitled to be in Government unless you get a majority of votes. So really, what happens to me or anyone else? You've got to ask the Australian people, which we do every three years. Thanks very much.