E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Energy policy; cost of nuclear power; renewables
KARL STEFANOVIC HOST: All right, well, Peter Dutton's nuclear plan has major investors reevaluating whether they keep ploughing billions of dollars into renewable energy this morning. Bill Shorten joins us now from Moonee Ponds in Victoria while the man himself, opposition Leader Peter Dutton, is with us in the studio. Morning, guys. Nice to see you, Pete. What about you this morning? Controlling the narrative of the nation with a thought bubble?
PETER DUTTON, LIBERAL PARTY: Well Karl, I think if you look at the top 20 economies of the world, Australia is the only one that hasn't embraced or hasn't signed up to nuclear. I'm not too worried about the billionaires who want to make more money off Australian taxpayers. I want to bring Australians power prices down. I want to make sure that we've got reliable power. And as we find out today, the independent regulator is warning that we'll get blackouts and brownouts under this government. And I want to make sure that we've got cleaner energy. And nuclear is a zero emissions technology, and it's been used in Australia since 1958 here in Sydney at Lucas Heights, in the reactor there. And I think we can do it in a way that is going to underpin the success of the economy.
STEFANOVIC: I'll circle back to that in a second. But Bill, I know you're going to bag nuclear, but investors fleeing your renewables program now, we're literally running out of gas. Not good.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNENT SERVICES: Well, first of all, you can't build a whole power grid in two years and repair it. But we've stepped up to the challenge. The fact of the matter is renewables are the way to go. It's just a shame we wasted ten years of Coalition. Why not getting on board with the future? So, we're also backing in gas. Gas is going to be our sort of baseload transitional, dispatchable power. And we've released our gas policies. The real issue though is this nuclear fantasy. I mean, candidly, the economics of Peter Dutton's proposal just don't stack up at all. That's why hasn't revealed his costs, has he?
STEFANOVIC: Okay. So, lots of people admire your chutzpah, Pete, but that's all it is, isn't it?
DUTTON: Well, if you look at Bill's old union, the Australian Workers Union, they're strongly in favour of nuclear because they know that the jobs aren't there for the workers without it. And in many of these towns are people in their hundreds, in their thousands are going to lose their jobs when the coal fired power stations come to end of life. So, we'll release the costings and that'll be an important discussion and one that we're happy to do because it will be a fraction of the cost of Anthony Albanese's $1.2 trillion plan, which is going to drive up the cost of electricity.
STEFANOVIC: When will we see those costings?
DUTTON: Very soon, Karlos. Very soon.
STEFANOVIC: Days, weeks, months?
DUTTON: I think very soon. And I think I think people will be pleasantly surprised. It's a lot of money, there's no question about that. But this is an investment for 80 years. These nuclear plants can produce and provide 24/7 power for 80 to 100 years. The wind turbines last 19 years. So, you've got to cycle them in and out 3 or 4 times in comparison.
STEFANOVIC: Bill, the problem for you at the moment is no one can quite grasp your renewables program because they're still paying through their shivering teeth to turn their heaters on this winter.
SHORTEN: Karl, I don't mean to interrupt the Peter Dutton advertorial session, but let's just go back to costs here.
STEFANOVIC: Well, why don't you just answer that question?
SHORTEN: Nuclear power is with respect. Well, I will, but let's, with respect, you just gave Pete three questions in a row about his non-answer on costings -
STEFANOVIC: I can, I can, I can replay the tape. And it definitely wasn't three in a row, just so you know.
SHORTEN: All right, two.
STEFANOVIC: But again, if you want to host the show, you're welcome
SHORTEN: Pete - no, no, thank you very much for the job offer. I've had a couple. The fact of the matter is that Pete's nuclear policy, like, the guy is now running for Prime Minister of La La Land. The truth of the matter is that nuclear power is much more expensive. Let's talk about the two most recent power plants being built around the world. There's one in Hinkley, in Somerset in the UK. It was promised in 2010. It's not going to be delivered till 2028/2029. It's gone from $25 billion to $80 billion. The other big plant which is being built is near Augusta, Georgia, that has blown out to $53 billion. It's well overdue. I mean, even - Pete's trying to say that - he's now back in the business of a state-owned energy. I mean, it's interesting. He's gone from capitalist to communist. He wants to say that he will pay for all of the energy, the nuclear power costs. He won't be paying for it. It'll be the taxpayers. Yet again, we've got this nuclear fantasy kicked down the road. John Howard rejected it in 1998. Like, it's not a serious policy, Karl. In terms of renewables. Yeah, we are firming up the market there. Renewables are much cheaper. We're seeing a lot more people putting solar on their rooftops. But it won't just be renewables under Labor. It'll be renewables plus storage, plus gas. All right. So that's a real plan and it's so much cheaper.
STEFANOVIC: Do you mind if I go to Pete now?
SHORTEN: Yeah. Please do. I'm interested to hear the detail.
STEFANOVIC: All right. WA. You've got an issue. WA doesn't want it. Your future Queensland Premier won't be making a decision about his own undies before the next election. Local members everywhere are saying no, except in some of those parts of Queensland. So how are you going to steamroll the states into this?
DUTTON: Well, Karl, this is a decision that I think is in our country's best interest and in our long-term best interest. It's going to underpin economic success and jobs for 8 to 10 decades, almost to the next century. And so there will be opponents and there will be people opposed to it. But I've made this decision because I think it's in our country's best interests. In terms of the state premiers, I've got the utmost respect for them. We'll work with them well in government. But in the end, the Commonwealth legislation overrides the state legislation. So, it's a moot point in that sense. I believe very strongly that the 19 biggest economies have got it right. Why is Australia an outlier, and why wouldn't we embrace the technology that can deliver cheaper electricity costs? That's the case in these other economies.
STEFANOVIC: I don’t know that it's a moot point if all the state premiers don't want it.
DUTTON: But Karl under the Constitution, the Commonwealth law overrides the state law to the extent of the inconsistency in the state law. And the constitutional experts have pointed that out in the last couple of days. So, they don't have a veto right over what the Commonwealth can do.
STEFANOVIC: Billy, Pete makes the point about some of your unions liking nuclear. Have they got it wrong?
SHORTEN: Well, I love Pete quoting the AWU, because the AWU will also say don't vote for Peter Dutton at the next election. The AWU isn't pushing nuclear power at the moment. I mean, Pete's picking different arguments and let's just examine. What he says basically is other parts of the world have used nuclear energy. So therefore, we should. But other parts of the world drive on the other side of the road. We're not about to change which side of the road we drive on, because our history is different. The fact is, we are a sunnier continent than the Europeans. We've got more wind. The fact is, when he talks about the other 20 nations, he's not right about Saudi Arabia. They're in the G20. He's not right about Indonesia. He's not right about Germany. He's not right about Italy. The fact of the matter is the only reason why some of the European countries are continuing some of the nuclear plants which were scheduled for closure, and they're still closing, plenty of them is because the Russians have cut off the gas and they at the moment need to diversify their energy base. We are in a different place, mate. This is just selling Mirage and Smokescreen as substance.
STEFANOVIC: Okay.
SHORTEN: You can make up your own mind about the safety, but the issue is. And I'm not even running that argument here today, it's - I mean, to paraphrase what an American president once said about his rival, “it's the cost, stupid”. And the cost of nuclear is way over the top. And to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that Pete's going down this path. I mean, hats off to him for being bold, but being crazy brave with a silly idea which you'll never be around to have to account for the cost overruns, that's just, it's just smoke and mirrors, mate.
DUTTON: Well, Karlos, as Bill's just demonstrated there, he doesn't have any intellectual argument against nuclear power in our country.
SHORTEN: It’s called the cost! It’s economics.
DUTTON: And I think the other point is that we know from the international experience, in Ontario, for example, comparable society to ours, they have 60% nuclear in the mix there. Their electricity prices are a quarter of what it is here in Australia. So, I want to make sure that we can grow the jobs, but we can't do that without a stable economy, and we don't have a stable economy without stable and affordable electricity.
STEFANOVIC: Let's see what the cost is. Okay, there have been some fantastic memes doing the rounds over the last 24 hours or so, the scare campaigns from Labor, some funny, some pathetic. But I like this one actually, here we are: “Under Dutton. This will be your family dog” Now, I reckon I've seen one of those dogs walking around Moonee Ponds and Bondi. Look at that, Miss magnificent. How do you feel about, um, that being our future, Pete?
DUTTON: Well, it's when you look at the memes that, uh, and the cartoons that I cop on a daily basis, that one's actually pretty complimentary. So, you take what you can get.
STEFANOVIC: Billy, you?
SHORTEN: No fair call. Pete. Listen, this isn't going to be a debate won about memes, but it is going to be one about the detail. I mean, Pete just quoted Ontario. Next door to Ontario is Quebec. Quebec has renewable energy, and its prices are half that of Ontario. The point is that this is not 1960, Pete. There may have been the glory years for the Liberals, but in 1960, maybe we should have made a decision to go nuclear. It's now 2024. We can't - you're trying to say that in 100 years, Peter Dutton's going to be cheaper on electricity.
STEFANOVIC: All right.
SHORTEN: We don't have 100 years to wait.
STEFANOVIC: It's good policy debate, guys. Great stoushing with Billy, as always. And Pete, you too.
DUTTON: Thank you.