E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: National Cabinet; National Plan to End Violence against Women and Children; WA Home Invasion; Rugby League.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much for joining us. Today's National Cabinet was a constructive discussion with the Premiers and Chief Ministers, together with the Family and Domestic Violence Commissioner, Micaela Cronin, who reported to the National Cabinet meeting. Was then followed by a report from the Victorian Premier, Jacinta Allan, about the 2016 Royal Commission and that experience arising out of that. We heard from every state and territory jurisdiction about the work that they were doing in their respective states and territories. And we determined to move forward in a range of ways, practical, immediate steps, as well as setting a further meeting for the next quarter to report back on issues, including the different systems in states and territories and how there can be more uniformity going forward as well. That work will be undertaken with the leadership of the current CAF chair is Premier Malinauskas of South Australia. This is indeed a national crisis and it's a national challenge, and we're facing this with a spirit of national unity. Today is about who we are as a nation and as a society. We recognise that Governments need to act, but we also recognise that this is an issue for the whole of society, not just for Governments. It's an issue for civil society, it's an issue for the media, it's an issue for all of us to work together in the national interest to deal with what is a scourge of violence against women that is having a real impact out there, with once every four days, a woman losing their life at the hand of a domestic or former domestic partner. This is indeed a national crisis, which is why we convened this meeting. We also recognise that this has a traumatic impact on children. Too many children are growing up in households or witnessing violence, or in the worst cases of course, children growing up without their mums because of their murder at the hands of a domestic partner or a former domestic partner. We want to change this. We want to change this in a way in which we all have to take responsibility, because violence against women is not a women's problem to solve. It is a whole of society problem to solve, and men in particular have to take responsibility. There was a determination around the National Cabinet table. For some of us this is deeply personal, and for all of us this is very, very important. So today we determined some actions we could take immediately, but also looking towards how we change behaviour, how we change the agenda. Today in terms of outcomes it builds on the work that our Government has already done. The $2.3 billion we've committed, the ten days family and domestic violence leave, the changes to the single Parenting Payment, the increased funding for community workers, the increased funding for housing for women and children escaping domestic violence through the Housing Australia Future Fund. We know that when a woman is killed by a violent partner, too often some people will say, why didn't she leave? And it's because of there not being options, which is why it is very important that we don't put people in a situation where they can't afford to leave a violent relationship. So today we can announce the Government will invest $925 million over five years, will be included in the budget in two weeks’ time, to permanently establish the Leaving Violence Program so that those escaping violence can receive financial support, safety assessments and referrals to support pathways. Those eligible will be able to access up to $5,000 in financial support, along with referral services, risk assessments and safety planning. This commitment builds on measures put in place by our Government to help address financial barriers to escaping violence. Some of those measures I spoke about before in terms of domestic violence leave, investing in crisis accommodation. Today also we're announcing a suite of online measures to help combat toxic male extremist views about women online. When I've spoken to parents around the country, they expressed their concern about the exposure of young boys and young men to violent videos and imagery online. And that is something that was mentioned by states and territories when they went around, what their jurisdictions were doing. We will introduce legislation to ban the creation and distribution of deepfake pornography. Sharing sexually explicit material using technology like artificial intelligence will be subject to serious criminal penalties. A new phase of the Stop it at the Start campaign will launch in mid-June and will run until May 2025. This new phase will include a counter influencing campaign in online spaces where violent and misogynistic content thrives, to directly challenge the material in the spaces that it's being viewed. The Government's undertaking long overdue classification reforms with states and territories, which will examine options to reduce exposure to violent pornography, informed by engagement with experts and best available evidence about harms. Finally, we've brought forward the reporting data of the review of the Online Safety Act, a year ahead of schedule, to ensure we're keeping up with emerging online threats and harms. This was a particular focus of debate, so that when the Victorian Premier reported on the royal commission, one of the things that was very stark was just how much technology has changed the nature of the threat and the damage which is being done by this new use of technology, and it's something that we're very, very conscious of. The government will also bring forward legislation in early August to outlaw the release of private information online with an intent to cause harm. This is known as doxxing, of course, and has been a debate. Finally, I want to acknowledge the very important work that the Attorney-General is leading to strengthen penalties targeting the creation and non- consensual sharing of sexually explicit deepfakes, which is there. I do urge parents to visit the esafety.gov.au website and to look at their resources, which are based on research and expert advice. We, of course, have quadrupled funding for the eSafety Commissioner because of the increased role that online activity is calling across a range of areas, not the least of which though is in attitudes towards women, attitudes towards violence. This is a debate that we have to have as a society because it is having an extraordinary impact and I think that that was a common theme of the contributions this morning. It was a very constructive meeting and I thank the Premiers and Chief Ministers for making themselves available for this. I'll now turn to the Family and Domestic Violence Commissioner and then we'll hear from the Ministers about their respective reforms that are being proposed in their areas. Commissioner.
MICAELA CRONIN, COMMONWEALTH DOMESTIC, FAMILY AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Prime Minister. It was a real honour and responsibility to be able to present to National Cabinet today, the first National Cabinet we have had on men's violence against women. I began as Australia's first Domestic Family and Sexual Violence eighteen months ago, but I began my career as a domestic, working as a social worker, working in a women's refuge over thirty years ago. And in that time I have seen some incredibly dramatic change, but as we are all talking about today, some failures of our society changing enough in some very important areas. It's really significant that we have had a National Cabinet today. It's been triggered by the appalling spate of deaths, as the Prime Minister and others have referred to, one woman every four days, being murdered. Every next one of those women is too many. Like many of you I wake up every day and pick up my phone worried about what news I'm going to see and the impact that that will have on communities. But we also know that that's just the tip of the iceberg. I met yesterday with the National Lived Experience Advisory Council, which I think is one of the most important things I've been able to achieve as I've undertaken this role, bringing together people from across the country who have direct lived experience of domestic, family and sexual violence. And the message from those men and women was that they are very triggered and distressed about what is occurring at the moment, but really pleased that we are finally having such a united national conversation. I agree with what the Prime Minister said about the National Cabinet today. It was a very unified discussion, there were very consistent themes, and I was very pleased to hear the commitment to come back next quarter to report on the efforts that are being made across the country and to keep a spotlight, and to keep efforts really on the national agenda to end domestic and family violence. We have a national plan which is a very good national plan, but no plan in such a complex area can be a set and forget plan. We need to be constantly looking at what is emerging and changing and absolutely technology changes are part of that and we need to be looking at what do we need to prioritise. We'll be holding a roundtable next week and bringing together experts to talk about what are some of the things that need to be prioritised to prevent these homicides.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Commissioner. Minister Rishworth.
AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Thank you, Prime Minister. Well today's announcement is building on what has been a significant investment by our Government to address violence against women. But of course we know that violence against women and children has been a national crisis for some time and is a national shame. Every time a woman loses her life at the hands of a man, it is one death too many. But the rates of this in this country are unacceptable. Now we also know that financial insecurity can be a barrier to women leaving a violent relationship. And knowing they have the support, the financial support that they need is critically important. That's why I'm very pleased today that our Government is announcing the permanent leaving Violence Program. This program will provide victim survivors with the financial support, risk assessment, safety planning and referrals to other essential services at that critical time when they are making the decision to leave. Through the evaluation and redesign of the pilot programs, we know that this program not only assists with financial support, but also helps women that may have otherwise fallen through the cracks to connect with other supports. Recent evidence has shown that many people who access this support, it will be the first time they've ever had contact with a service. Now today we're also announcing that the Government will soon be launching the next campaign as part of Stop it at the Start to directly counter the influence that rising levels of social media and online content are having that promote violence against women. This will directly challenge the material online and encourage conversations with families about the damaging impact. I know as a parent of two young boys that there is a lot of stuff that I'm not aware of and don't know and don't understand what they might be influenced or being challenged about on the online world. So we do know that we need a conversation about this. We do know we need to give parents the support and resources to have those conversations. And we do need to counter this violent online material. We know that to end violence against women we do need generational change and we need positive role models for young boys to ensure that those negative stereotypes are counted and that influences that promote damaging attitudes towards women are also counted. It's time that this ends and our government has and will continue to put policies and programs in place to help with the goals in line with our national plan. I finally want to say we need persistent, consistent and sustained attention and action on this issue. And all Governments, businesses, all civil society individuals need to work together to achieve change.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Minister. And we'll now hear from Minister Rowland.
MICHELLE ROWLAND, MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you, Prime Minister. Like most Australians, I am deeply distressed by the increasing violence against women that we are seeing. As a nation we all need to take steps forward to foster a more respectful society, and that means we need everyone to come to the table. That includes parents, teachers, faith and community leaders, employers, state and federal Governments and digital platforms. The reality is that digital platforms are influencing our culture and our social lives. They have a fundamental responsibility to step up and do more. The content that digital platform service, through algorithms and recommender systems, particularly to young Australians, has an impact in reinforcing harmful and outdated gender norms. While digital platforms may not be creating the content themselves, they play a major role in determining much of what people see. We must ensure that our community standards are respected online as well as offline. We need a multipronged approach to help support a healthier online environment for children and all Australians. And today I'm announcing the following next steps. First, the Australian Government will commit $6.5 million in the May Budget for a pilot of age assurance technologies to better protect children online and reduce their exposure to harmful content. The pilot will identify available age assurance products and assess their efficacy, including in relation to privacy and security. The outcomes of this pilot will support the eSafety Commissioners ongoing regulatory work to implement codes or standards under the Online Safety Act to reduce children's exposure to inappropriate content, and that includes online pornography. ESafety is already well engaged in discussions with representatives of all eight sections of the online industry in Australia, including Digi and Comms Alliance, about the scope and outcomes relevant to the next phase of mandatory industry codes. A major focus of these codes will be on children's access to online pornographic material, but they will also address other types of content that are unsuitable for minors to see such as detailed and graphic portrayals of real violence. The codes will be registered by the eSafety Commissioner only when they are satisfied that they provide appropriate community safeguards. Should the Commissioner assess any code as falling short of that requirement as set out in the Act, they may elect to instead determine a standard that applies to that section of the online industry. The eSafety Commissioner sees benefits in having the trial run in parallel with the codes development process, which eSafety expects to conclude as soon as possible. Second, there is growing concern about the role of violent online pornography in normalising gendered violence within the Australian community. In response to these concerns, the Government is undertaking a long overdue classification review with states and territories which will examine options to reduce exposure to violent pornography, informed by engagement with experts and the best available evidence about harms. Reducing this exposure to harmful and degrading pornography will better protect the women and children of Australia, and we will have more to say about our plans to strengthen online safety. As the Prime Minister said, the Albanese Government has taken decisive action to improve the safety of Australians online by quadrupling ongoing base funding for the eSafety Commissioner in our last budget. The Government has also commenced our review into the Online Safety Act, which is brought forward one year ahead of schedule, to ensure our laws are keeping up with emerging online threats and harms. Finally, I'm well aware as a parent myself of two young girls, there is a weight that parents are feeling about how to help their children navigate the online environment. As the Prime Minister said, eSafety has evidence-based resources freely available to help parents to support their children, including around discussions about healthy and respectful relationships. And I urge all parents to visit esafety.gov.au and make use of these free resources.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Minister. There will be a range of media releases, if they are not out now, they will be out soon, with the communique from the National Cabinet. Happy to take questions.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, how difficult is it to police the Internet in terms of this? I mean, it looks a very noble pursuit, what you're looking to do here, but you've seen, even with trying to get this Wakeley image down, video down, it's not that easy. And secondly, was there discussion about bail laws, how they're adjudicated on and on electronic monitoring of violent offenders during the National Cabinet?
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, thanks Andrew. On the first matter, we don't underestimate how difficult this is. We will be seeking cooperation wherever we can, but we need to take action and the online players need to understand exactly what the consequences are of a free for all online. So, I'll ask the Minister to comment on this as well, because she knows the challenges which are there. It's a challenge for Government, it's like a challenge for parents as well. Parents are terribly concerned about their children and what they're seeing online, and that is increasing over a period of time. My son, as you know, is no longer a child, he’s a young adult. The time in which from he was first getting access through, it is a far bigger problem today than it was ten years ago. And that was something that really came through from Premier Allan's report about the Royal Commission. From 2016 to today, there are different challenges. Even from 2022, with this 10-year plan, and that's why the Commissioner says there's a 10-year plan. Its framework is very good, but we can't afford to set and forget. We need to continually look at what are the challenges and how do we overcome them, and overcome them together across the parliament, across society as well. On the issue of the States and Territories, when we went through reports from each of the jurisdictions, they spoke about electronic monitoring, spoke about the range of issues in the justice system as well, which are there. That's the work that will continue. There is a Police Minister's meeting this Friday. The Attorney-General's standing committee will discuss these issues as well and then come back in the next quarter. So, not kicking this down the road, come back with ways in which uniformity or greater uniformity can be considered going forward. But it was very constructive and one of the things that was clear as well is that jurisdictions were keen to learn off each other, to learn off best practice what has worked. Where something has worked, let's replicate it. Where things aren't working, let's change it. And that is a determination from the Premiers and Chief Ministers which was there. I was certainly very heartened by the level of cooperation which was there. That work will be led by Premier Malinauskas as the Chair of CAF, which is basically the caucus, if you like, of Premiers and Chief Ministers. But I'd ask Michelle to make some further comments on your first question.
MINISTER ROWLAND: Thanks, Prime Minister. I think the Prime Minister is absolutely right in that there is a sense of, is this too overwhelming for Governments to approach and what sort of changes can be made? I'd make three responses to that. The first is that Governments and regulators around the world are grappling with these very issues. And it's important for Australia, as we have done, to continue to monitor what is being done and actions that are being taken overseas, but also to be coordinated across Government. And that's why, as the Chair of the Online Harms Ministers group that includes Minister Rishworth, the Attorney-General, Minister for Education, Minister for Youth, we have taken a very coordinated approach to understanding these issues. We also need to break these down into areas where we have laws that need to be changed to operate more effectively, or where there are gaps in the regulatory system that need to be addressed. On the first point, we have an Online Safety Act that we support the eSafety Commissioner, not only in implementing, as we've seen in recent weeks, but also in implementing, in terms of formalising those code processes and those other powers that are in place to deal with the behaviour of digital platforms, but where there are gaps as well. And we have seen, even since the beginning of 2022, when the Online Safety Act first came into operation, there was little understanding, if anything, about generative AI, and certainly not about issues such as deepfakes. The announcement that the Prime Minister has made today about taking forward that banning of deepfakes represents not only that coordination, not only that forward looking approach, but also looking at what other jurisdictions in the UK, for example, have also announced. I think the other important point to note is that as a society, we do need to do more, and this is a role not only for Government, not only for regulators and civil society, but also for the platforms themselves. And part of this is putting the emphasis on the platforms to enforce their existing terms of service and where they are not doing that, to examine what are the measures Governments can take. And indeed, this is part of the role that we are undertaking right now in reviewing the Online Safety Act, whose terms of references include recommender systems, but again, working in conjunction with the existing laws that we have with our regulatory framework and with eSafety, and making use of those resources that are available to us. This is all part of keeping Australians safer online, and particularly targeting vulnerable groups, including children in that.
JOURNALIST: Minister, how realistic is it expect that new classifications or legislation to ban deep fake pornography will actually reduce access to this content, given so much of it is hosted overseas or by digital platforms online that have resisted efforts today?
MINISTER ROWLAND: Well, part of this goes to the classification scheme itself, and Australians, by and large, trust the classification scheme. The problem is that it is out of date, and despite the previous Government receiving a report into this, it was basically put on a shelf. We have picked this up and we are taking this forward. The classification scheme, as it stands, was predominantly designed for a time when we went to the movies to watch films, we purchased books, you might have purchased video games from a store in a physical context. It was not designed for the digital world. However, it is a cooperative scheme that operates between States, Territories and the Commonwealth, and it requires the commitment of all of those parties to move this forward and to ensure that the guidelines that determine what material is classified and how actually goes forward in a constructive and coordinated way. And I'm pleased that this was one of the items that was discussed at National Cabinet, because we do need that agreement in order to move this forward. Also in respect of what sort of items should be classified and how, for example, deepfakes can be outlawed. We know, for example, that we already have laws that relate to the sharing of intimate images, and we perceive that this will be part of that ongoing piece of work to ensure that that kind of material is not made available and it has the appropriate recourse to be taken down, because in many of these cases, what the affected person wants to see is this material taken down. So, we are confident in our classification scheme, we are confident that the States and Territories will work with the Commonwealth to update this framework, and we are confident that, based on existing precedent that we have in relation to this type of content that forms deepfakes, that we can have meaningful and impactful change in this area.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, on the issue of changes to bail legislation or electronic monitoring put forward by certain states, how difficult will it be to get uniformity across all States and Territories with reforms like.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we, of course, have a federation, and so that has to be in a cooperative way. But what I heard from the Premiers and Chief Ministers was a commitment to best practice, to examine what works, and they will work in a coordinated way to look at how they can deal with issues, issues like bail laws and others. That will require, obviously, some of them require individual legislation across the jurisdictions. So, that will, if you like, take place by States and Territories, with the Commonwealth essentially just playing a role in bringing people together, bringing together their jurisdictions. One example of something that was raised, really, arising out of Premier Allan's report on the Victorian Royal Commission was education and respectful relationships, and Premier Allan spoke about arising from the Royal Commission. That was one of the recommendations that is going, is really making a positive difference in Victoria teaching from a very young age. So, one of the things that I undertook, for example, was to speak with Jason Clare about how is it that we can, what can we do to perhaps include that in the national curriculum, to make improvements there as well, to make sure that, you know, our youngest kids, how do we counter? We've had questions about the negative, understandably as well. How do we promote really good behaviour? One of the things about this is that women and children are the victims here, but men as well benefit from respectful relationships. Dysfunctional relationships just damage the whole of our society. This isn't about, this is about lifting us all up, the whole society. And one way that we can do that is we do have to address those intergenerational issues.
JOURNALIST: I was wondering if today's discussions talked the possibility of a national registrar for DV offenders and sharing of information.
PRIME MINISTER: We did speak about shared data as well. That's one of the things that will come back to the Commonwealth of how that can occur. We were conscious of the fact that our society is more mobile than it has ever been. People live in different states, they travel around as well, and how that sharing of information can occur. You know, we've just had a breakthrough that was difficult for a long period of time about national firearms register. We know what the consequences have been of not having. So, that's one of the things that data sharing was certainly on the agenda and something that everyone was keen on progressing.
JOURNALIST: Thanks, Prime Minister. The Opposition has been talking a lot today about a lack of 500 frontline workers who haven't been delivered and I'm just wondering if there's any movement on that today.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, well, we have funding in our Budget for 500 community workers. It's something we've encouraged. Two lots of the funding has been progressed to the States and Territories. One of the issues that we discussed today that came up was workforce issues. I know when I was in Alice yesterday, one of the concerns that was raised yesterday and the day before was just about getting workers on the ground to undertake what is a really difficult, it’s a difficult job. And I pay tribute to the Commissioner and those people in the sector. I know how hard this sector can be to work in due to connections that I've had in the past. It can be really tough. So, we are progressing on that. One of the things that we urged today is for the jurisdictions to make sure that they speak with their respective Ministers to ensure that that rollout occurs. But the funding is there.
JOURNALIST: You’ve copped a bit of flack since Sunday's protest about the way you approach that. You've said, “have a look at the tape, everyone can see what was said.”
Well, what was said was, “do you want me to speak or not? I’m the Prime Minister.” Could you have handled that interaction a bit better in retrospect?
PRIME MINISTER: You've put that, you haven't put what was said beforehand, which is, I was asked to have discussions with people unknown about whether it was appropriate, whether we would be speaking or not. I responded to that. I mean, I was happy to speak, happy to not speak. I think that the video before then as well, clearly indicates what the view was over, whether that was appropriate or not.
JOURNALIST: What did that show? Excuse my ignorance.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you can look at it, you work at Sky, everyone can look at it. Look, one of the things I'm determined to do here, this is a really serious issue. We're talking about a woman dying at the hands of their partner every four days, and I have no interest in, this isn't about me. I attended a rally. I was proud to do so. I think, as a national leader, it's appropriate that I do that and I stand by that. I wish, I congratulated, if you look as well, at the footage, I congratulated the organisers of the rally there and said very positive things. And I wish everyone who organised that all the very best. It was a very good thing that occurred, to mobilise people.
JOURNALIST: Just on the rally and maybe in an effort to just draw a line under it. Do you feel, personally, a sense of regret? Do you feel sorry for the fact that there was, Sarah Williams was left in tears at the end of that exchange?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I feel, I don't want to see anyone in that situation, feel badly about anything, about any circumstances. I wish Sarah well. We have reached out, the Commission has reached out to Sarah's organisation to provide a briefing that will occur. You know, I engage constructively with people, and I attended, along with Minister Rishworth, Minister Gallagher. We were quite happy to sit there quietly listening to the speeches, if that's what people wanted to do. People were asking us to speak in the crowd, hence what occurred.
JOURNALIST: Are you satisfied with what's been achieved today? And more importantly, do you think women across Australia will be satisfied with the outcomes of this meeting today?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm satisfied it's a further step forward. Can we be satisfied when a woman's losing her life, on average, every four days? Of course not. Of course not. I'll tell you when I'll be satisfied. I'll be satisfied when we eliminate this as an issue, when we're not talking about this as an issue, when women are not feeling as though they have to mobilise in rallies. I'll be satisfied when a parent says the same thing to their daughter that they say to their son when they go out at night. Not, how are you getting home from the train station? How are you getting home from the bus stop? Not, stay safe. I'll be satisfied when we have gender equality over all of those issues. That's my objective. A major objective of this Government is gender equity. We are progressing on a range of areas. This is a difficult issue, but I don't think any of us should be satisfied until we're not talking about these issues.
JOURNALIST: Just in regards to the Perth detainee –
PRIME MINISTER: Can we deal with this first if that's okay? If there are no more I'm happy to take a couple of questions.
JOURNALIST: In regards to the Perth detainee, can we get some clarification as to whether there was opposition to bail and should anyone, I guess, lose their job as to what has transpired?
PRIME MINISTER: Well the first thing to be said, of course, is that my thoughts are with those affected, particularly Ninette Simons. I think all Australians thoughts would be with her and with those affected. And it’s completely unacceptable. There's no place for violence in our society. I can't comment further about the investigation which is in the middle, being conducted by WA Police.
JOURNALIST: Just on this, you rushed through this legislation on preventive detention in December. Had to pass then. It's May 1 today. We haven't had one application in relation to preventive detention of any of the detainees. Will we see an application? And can you tell us honestly what's the hold up? I see two of your Ministers here out strong and upfront. It doesn't feel that way at the moment with Ministers O'Neil and Giles. They're hardly there to be seen ever on this issue. What's that about?
PRIME MINISTER: I think you'll find that Minister O'Neil was on television this morning. Might not have been on Sky, but it still counts.
JOURNALIST: Once a week she comes out of hiding, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: So it still counts, can I say that. On these issues, just like the law that was passed last December was based upon the previous Government's legislation on terrorist offenders. That took a long time to bring a case to bear based upon proper legal advice. What you want to make sure isn't that you make an application that doesn't succeed, you want to make sure that an application does succeed. I want to see, to be very clear, I want to see applications done as soon as possible and I want to see them succeed.
JOURNALIST: What's your advice on how soon that's going to be?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I want to see it when we, when it comes to legal processes it's always best to make announcements when they're happening rather than foreshadow them. Something that is good practice, and I want to see it happen as a matter of urgency. I've made that very clear, my view.
JOURNALIST: Not all detainees have bracelets. Is that because there's a fear by the Government that that in itself, putting bracelets on them, could be taken to the High Court and ruled unconstitutional?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, that's a matter of, those operational matters are a matter for those people in the authorities who are dealing with it.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, on the nest of spies of India disrupted by ASIO, are you confident India has stopped monitoring diaspora here or stealing defence secrets?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't comment on intelligence matters. Thank you very much.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, Demetriou, you're stuck in, what are your thoughts?
PRIME MINISTER: Andrew, a different one. Jason, JD, Demetriou, I think, put in an extraordinary effort as coach of Souths. He's a very decent man and it would have been a tough day for him yesterday, but I wish him all the very best. Thanks.