E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Daniel Andrews resignation, Four Corners investigation, Qantas Chairman Richard Goyder
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Bill Shorten is the Minister for the NDIS and a Victorian very senior MP who worked alongside the Victorian Premier for many years. And he's my guest this morning. Welcome back to the programme.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good morning, Patricia. How are you?
KARVELAS: Great. Daniel Andrews has been one of the most successful politicians of his generation. What was the key to that success?
SHORTEN: I think lots of people will have lots of opinions. My opinion, he was very tough. He set a direction and you knew where he stood. He's come through two of the biggest challenges we've seen some of our bushfires and floods. But also, I think the Pandemic is a legacy of his strength.
KARVELAS: He centralised power through the Premier's Office in a way that's unusual for a government and has been criticised when other governments have done it, including Scott Morrison. Could that be a problem, do you think? And do we need to have to learn some lessons from that period?
SHORTEN: No, I'm not sure I agree with that analysis. I think the Pandemic was the most unusual period in Victorian and national history, and I think that we were learning a lot as we went along during that. But when I think back to those first few days in March of 2020, I think the aim was to ensure that we had enough hospital space to be able to treat people if they got very sick. And that required, I think, a high degree of central leadership. But he's got a team of pretty capable Ministers, so they're all doing lots of different things themselves. So, yeah, I'm not sure I totally buy that hypothesis you tested with me.
KARVELAS: And just one final question on the theme of Victorian politics before we move on to your portfolio. Jacinta Allan looks tipped to become the next Premier. What will she bring to the leadership?
SHORTEN: Well, first of all, it hasn't been resolved. In the event she's successful and she's a very highly successful, accomplished, woman leader in her own right. She comes from the region, she's a very experienced politician, so I think she'll make sure that all of Victoria has a voice in terms of decisions in Spring Street. But as I say, the Victorian Labor Party will work out who their next leader is in the next few days. And no doubt the midnight oil is burning as people work through their issues. But one thing I think Victorians will see is a continuity of the government. And I know all the Ministers and members of the Victorian government are focused principally about the best interests of Victorians. So, whilst the news was quite sudden, one thing I know in politics is that there's always a replacement for you. I think this will sort out.
KARVELAS: There’s always a replacement for everyone, really. That's the story of the world, too. Look, on Monday night, we saw some shocking accounts of practices as part of a controversial therapy funded by the NDIS. The NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commissioner told Four Corners the programme had been shut down in August 2021. But there's new evidence from a worker that the programme was still running eight months later, in 2022. How was that allowed to happen, Minister?
SHORTEN: As you know, we came to power at the end of May in that year. I found the footage shocking and confronting. It's unacceptable. There is a therapy, ABA therapy, for people who experience pretty severe autism, but there's no set of circumstances which permits what we saw. In my opinion, then, there are legal practises. When Four Corners raised the issue, the Commission advised myself is that in Four Corners that all of this had stopped in 2021. I certainly don't think there's any place in the sector for people running this programme. Late yesterday, Four Corners raised with us that they had some new evidence that it hadn't shut for another eight months. We've certainly asked the Commission when Four Corners notified us as to the truth of the matter and that we also want the evidence that Four Corners has got and put it to the Commission to understand what's really happened. So, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it right now.
KARVELAS: Why didn't the Commission penalise Irabina, deregister them or take action against its then CEO after discovering it? I mean, that can't be appropriate.
SHORTEN: No, I was perplexed. I'm told that there was action taken at the time to shut the programme down and there was action taken against this particular service programme.
KARVELAS: What action did they tell you they'd taken? Because that's not what the ABC thinks.
SHORTEN: Yeah, no, I saw what the ABC was saying. I can only go on what I was told. Let's be very straight here. People on the NDIS, some of them, are vulnerable and at risk. There is no set of circumstances where it's acceptable by any registered or unregistered service provider to treat people in its care in that manner that we saw. I want to make sure that the regulator doesn't just have an educative function, but it has the teeth to be able to actually enforce the laws keeping people safe. In the Budget this year, so, several months ago, I successfully convinced my colleagues to almost triple the funding of the regulator, which is funding had been neglected. But as for what we saw last night, I'm seeking an explanation about what happened. And is this right? We were told that it was shut down.
KARVELAS: Can you tell me the parameters of just that explanation? Because it seems to me, with respect, Minister, that it's going to need more than just an explanation. It seems to me it needs an investigation.
SHORTEN: Well, I want to get the facts right first.
KARVELAS: But if the facts they’re providing you are at odds with the facts that the ABC has been able to ascertain, that needs an investigation, doesn't it?
SHORTEN: If there's a difference between what I'm being told and what the facts of the matter actually are, yes, it will require some action. But first of all, I'm just going to get my facts right before I start being judge and jury.
KARVELAS: I understand. Do you have confidence in the Quality and Safety Commissioner, Tracy Mackey?
SHORTEN: For me, this is not about the individual. For me, this is about making sure that we have a regulator which is fit for purpose. The fact of the matter is that this regulator has been chronically and negligently underfunded. When we came to power, we found there were perhaps 350 full time staff working in the regulator, for a scheme of hundreds of thousands of people that's underfunding. So, it's almost set up to fail. And so we've managed to put another 140 plus million dollars into the scheme over the next couple of years, which will lead to hundreds more people. But I also just say to the whole of the NDIS system, where it's working, it's changing lives, which is good, but I want to make sure that it is delivering quality and safe services. We've got, I think, several problems in the scheme in terms of the lack of sufficient oversight. This Friday, this Thursday or the end of this week, the Disability Royal Commission's due to report. I think that's going to add to our knowledge on what should be done. And I've got a review, which we've commissioned, it's been going since the end of last year, where we will heard thousands of submissions. And one of the issues is making sure that we've got a fit for purpose, quality and safeguard system.
KARVELAS: Okay, you said you didn't want to make it about the individual, but the current NDIS Commissioner, Tracy Mackey, told Four Corners the programme had ended in 2021, which wasn't the case. So, why hasn't the NDIS Commissioner told families about what went on there? And are you really still putting your trust in Tracy Mackey?
SHORTEN: First of all, I'm not going to debate an individual on the radio right now.
KARVELAS: Okay but if the individual has not done their job right, don't you, as the Minister, need to hold them to account?
SHORTEN: Well, you're asking me about a hypothetical. Four Corners came forward following its important show on Monday night. Four Corners reached out and told us there was some new matters to it late yesterday. I haven't seen what the commission's response is, but I can guarantee to participants and providers and people generally, I want to find out what's really happened here, because my default position is that people carrying out illegal practices should not be in the scheme, full stop. They should be banned, they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scheme. But I do want to understand my facts before I reach conclusions about anything.
KARVELAS: The regulator should refer assault to the police, shouldn't they?
SHORTEN: Yeah. In fact, I know the regulator does liaise with the police on occasion, but yes.
KARVELAS: Is there a case? You talk about teeth for the regulator, for providing, looking at law reform and providing a stronger body?
SHORTEN: I think so, yes. That's why I've said to you, we’ve got the Disability Royal Commission, literally at the end of this week, Minister Amanda Rishworth will be leading the response to the Disability Royal Commission across government. I'll be looking at what it says about NDIS and safety and the quality of treatment of people on the scheme, and I have my pretty comprehensive review of the whole scheme being presented to myself and state disability Ministers towards the end of next month. But I do wonder if they will, and I suspect they will call for sharpening up of legislative tools and mechanisms. And I certainly have already formed the view now, twelve months into the job, that quite frankly, there's been a fair bit of education done, but now we've made sure at long last the regulator is properly funded, that we've got to switch the dial to some pretty strong compliance. The other thing is, we've got a world in disability that you have registered providers and unregistered providers. I've got to make sure that everyone's accountable. Because at the end of the day, the most important thing is to give people on the scheme choice and control in their lives and make sure that the service providers delivering services treat them safely and not use these sort of restrictive, illegal restrictive practices that we used in that footage from 2020/2021. That's not acceptable.
KARVELAS: Just a final question to you on another topic. You were highly critical of Qantas Chairman Richard Goyder yesterday. Now shareholders are demanding his resignation. Does he just need to go?
SHORTEN: That'll all be matter for shareholders and the directors. I represent an electorate in the northwest of Melbourne. A lot of aviation people live in and around my lecturer. I think history reflects that the staff of Qantas have been loyal to their senior management and board than the treatment they've received back from them. I'm not sure what you resign for anymore in corporate life in Australia, but I do know that the workforce and I give them a big shout out this morning, if they're already at work or going to work, on or off shift. I think they've done the very best they can for the flying public, but I don't think they've received that same reciprocal commitment. The illegal sacking of 1700 baggage handlers and then the consistent lawfare raised by Qantas to try and justify an illegal action, exceedingly disappointing. The idea that an airline was keeping people's flying credits, the idea that they would sell tickets on planes that were already cancelled is, I think, not showing much loyalty to the flying public. It's treating the flying public sometimes as hostages rather than customers.
KARVELAS: Thank you so much for your time, Minister.
SHORTEN: Great, thank you.