E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Tanya Plibersek, welcome to the program.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Morning.
SPEERS: You have expressed alarm about what you've called this explosion in sexual violence amongst teenagers, in particular, including this practice of choking. What role is social media playing here?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, it's playing a huge role. It's one of the reasons that we ban social media access for under 16s, it's why we've introduced age verification for pornography. But we know that there is absolutely more to do in this space and we're very keen to work with Teach Us Consent on the Fix Algorithms campaign that they're running, because we know that, you know, if you set up a social media account as a young boy in Australia today, it takes an average of 23 minutes for you to be fed misogynistic, violent misogynistic content online. That is a deliberate decision of the social media companies that is wrecking our young boys, giving them all of the wrong ideas about what healthy relationships look like. So, we're absolutely up for work on algorithms, you know, opting in to those recommender algorithms that are causing so much harm, opting in or opting out. We've got a digital duty of care bill coming up shortly. The Communications Minister, Anika Wells, will be consulting on that digital duty of care bill and we think that this sort of thing is a very important part of that. We're also, of course, looking very closely at the recent Meta case in the US, the moves that the UK government have introduced to prevent the depiction of strangulation and suffocation in pornography. These are all really important considerations as we develop our next action plan on family, domestic and sexual violence, and that work's going on right now.
SPEERS: So, a few things you mentioned there. I want to come back to what the UK has done in relation to pornography, but just on the opt in, opt out on a social media algorithm, as you say, you've got this digital duty of care legislation. I think in about a month we're expected to see some draft legislation you plan to legislate by the end of the year. So, you are just to confirm here, you are looking at either an opt in or an opt out for people on social media algorithms.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, there's a lot of discussion right now about how you would do that technically. And, and I'm not an expert on how you do these things technically, but we absolutely see that it is wrong that, you know, a young boy sets up an account, he is looking at football and cars, and the next minute he's being fed misogynistic content. And as Chanel says on your podcast, it starts kind of mild. It starts with gym advice, healthy eating, and then it moves into, you know, you must make women respect you, this is how you make them respect you. And then it moves to progressively more violent and misogynistic content and funnels these young people into really unhealthy understandings of relationships between men and women. And I have to say, it is no coincidence that 60% of young people now report that they've experienced strangulation during a sexual encounter. That was just not a thing when we were growing up, David. It is pervasive and widespread and deadly and it's being fed to our young people and normalised.
SPEERS: It's a shocking figure. Just on social media, though, I would imagine the companies would put up a fight, as they did over the ban on the age limit on social media here in Australia. Is there a risk that if you do opt in or opt out on the algorithm, the alternative version they're going to provide is, is not going to be something that anyone wants to have, that they end up really limiting what they make available unless you take the algorithm?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I think we have to be very careful about the way we implement this, because what we've seen from the big tech companies in the past is they technically comply with what they're required to do legally, but they make the app so unpleasant or unwieldy to use that people default back to the old version that has the, you know, the recommender algorithms or the unhealthy, addictive qualities of the original app. So, yeah, we need to be super careful of the way that social media companies behave. I think the, I mean, the US case with Meta is a really interesting case because they've agreed to do a number of things. We're looking at those very closely. What would be terrific is if we saw some of those features that have been forced on the tech companies overseas to be, you know, more broadly adopted globally.
SPEERS: Yeah, we should just explain what they are. Huge court settlement, legal settlement with Meta and about a dozen states in the US, so they're going to, for under 18s, I think, limit their use to daytime hours, no nighttime and extreme beauty filters and things like that would go for kids as well. So, you'll press for those sort of things to happen here in Australia. Can I just come back to what you were saying about the UK. So, they have outlawed any depiction of strangulation or suffocation in pornography. Should Australia do the same?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, look, I think it's something that we should be looking at very seriously, there is something wrong with. There is something wrong with a situation where 70%, sorry, 60% of young people say they've experienced strangulation during sexual encounters. There is no safe way to strangle someone. We've seen the tragic reported incident recently here in Sydney. It is absolutely heartbreaking to hear of that case recently. But death is the most extreme thing that can happen. But we know that there's brain damage, potential long term brain damage, including aneurysms, that can happen weeks after a strangulation event. There is no safe way to strangle someone. And one of the things that we've actually been doing with Teach Us Consent is working out how to explain to people who are viewing pornography that pornography is not real life. This is not sex education. It's not real life. And the announcement that my colleague Jason Clare made today, coming out of National Cabinet, that we will be revisiting consent and respectful relationships education is really important in this respect. We have to be having-
SPEERS: Yeah, I was going to ask you that. How do you reach young people and change their attitudes on this and help them learn about what you're talking about there on strangulation.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well you talk to them frankly, David, I think there's a lot of schools out there who don't want to have frank conversations with young people because they're worried that parents will object to their children and young people being spoken to directly. I think we are well beyond that. We know that children as young as 10 are seeing pornography before they've had their first kiss. They're getting their sex education from pornography. We have to, we have to stop that by restricting their access to social media, age verification, restricting, we've banned nudify apps and deepfake pornography, we need to do more with the digital duty of care. But we also need to be honest with young people and talk to them about what healthy and respectful relationships look like in an age appropriate way. From preschool, all the way through school, through TAFE and university, in different age appropriate ways throughout their childhood and adolescence, and be honest with them, knowing that young people, you know, when they become sexually active, instead of acting on the scripts that they're getting from violent and degrading pornography, actually are able to negotiate consent, to talk about pleasure and love, to be ok to say, no, I don't like that I don't want to do that. All of these conversations, we need to empower young people to have.
SPEERS: You mentioned the National Cabinet agreement during the week, there was criticism from Zali Steggall and others that it was all a bit piecemeal. Re-announcements, nothing urgent. Australian Femicide Watch this week is saying there have been 48 women, 19 children killed so far this year. Is enough being done by the government?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I'm never going to say there's enough while a single woman is killed in a year or a single child, I'm never going to say it's enough. But no government has done more than ours. We've invested well over $4.4 billion in additional effort in this area. We've got $1.2 billion for transitional and emergency housing for women and children escaping violence. We've got a billion dollar leaving violence program. We've increased investment in legal supports to help people escape safely. There's a range of work that's already underway, in fact, we've got 583 activities underway between the Commonwealth and the states and they're being tracked on the Department of Social Services website, people can look at those in detail. The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare is tracking outcomes. We've got our National Family and Domestic Violence and Sexual Violence Commissioner Michaela Cronin, who'll be reporting to the Parliament on progress we've made in September. There’s a lot of work going on-
SPEERS: And just on that, sorry to jump in there, there's criticism that Commissioner doesn't have real teeth. There needs to be more power to properly audit all of these things government's doing, see what's working, see what's not.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I think there's a very strong case for holding governments to account and I'm happy to be held to account. That's what that tracking to Parliament does. But states and territories have a lot of the levers here. They run police, they run schools, they run refuges. So, we also need to make sure that the states and territories are being held to account. And that's what that tracking on the DSS website does, of those 583 activities that are ongoing at the moment. Of course, I'm happy to talk to the Commissioner about additional powers as well and that's part of the discussion we're having as we develop the second action plan on family, domestic and sexual violence.
SPEERS: Just one more question in this space. The camera equipped smart glasses that people are buying. Some people call them creepy glasses or pervert glasses. 730 had a story during the week about how they're being used to film women. Do you have a problem with these glasses?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I absolutely do. And I think it's, again, the reason we've got digital duty of care legislation coming up is because tech companies should know that their products are safe and make them safe before they release them onto an unsuspecting public. I know the Attorney General has asked the Privacy Commissioner to look specifically at these glasses and the Attorney General will have more to say about the import of the glasses soon. I also note that councils like Brisbane Council are banning the use of them or the wearing of them in places like public swimming pools. I think it is really concerning when tech companies just, you know, come up with these products and release them, release them without thought of how they can be misused. We've got a second tranche of privacy legislation coming up soon as well and I really do expect that things like this that can be used to furtively film, including during sexual encounters, for that filming then to be made public or used against someone who's been filmed as a way of blackmailing them, I mean, I'm very concerned about the potential uses of these glasses.
SPEERS: Should they be banned?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think they should be considered very, the use of them should be considered very carefully. And if they're going to be used, there should be safeguards around how they can be used. I mean, it's already possible, I believe, to buy glasses where you can disable the filming light so it's not apparent that they're filming as they're being used. That is really, really troubling. And I've seen plenty of misuse of these glasses already. I don't think it's, I don't think it's right to be able to walk up to someone and film an interaction without them knowing that the interaction's being filmed.
SPEERS: What about a moratorium, then, on importing them while you work out some of those rules?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, as I said, I believe the Attorney General has got more to say about this shortly, but it is something that we are considering very closely as a government.
SPEERS: I want to move on to a couple of other issues, but just quickly for viewers, if this conversation has raised any issues for you, help is available on the National Sexual Assault, Family Violence counselling helpline. That's 1800RESPECT. 1-800-737-732. Tanya Plibersek, just on a matter, a couple of matters outside your portfolio. One you've been passionate about, about for many years, and that's refugees. Was the government considering a cut in the refugee intake?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, I don't really know where this story came from. We reconfirmed our number as recently as a month ago at the national conference. There was certainly no discussion in cabinet that came anywhere close-
SPEERS: Sounds like the department at least wasn't up to speed then?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I can't tell you where the story came from. I can't tell you where the story came from, but the Prime Minister made very clear our position during the week.
SPEERS: And is it clear to you what that position is? Is this now permanent?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, 20,000.
SPEERS: Forever?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, forever is a big expression, David.
SPEERS: Okay. Beyond four years?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: A week is a long time in politics, as they say.
SPEERS: Okay, but this is more than a four-year commitment?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, well, it's a permanent commitment.
SPEERS: Okay. Finally, Labor has lost a seat to One Nation for the first time, the Secret Harbour by election in WA. Pauline Hanson says she's now coming for the Albanese government. It is an out of suburban seat. Lots of tradies there as well. Does it concern you, this outcome?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Of course, we look at any outcome like this and try and draw lessons from it and I think there's a few lessons in here for the Liberal Party as well. The Western Australian Liberals basically said, doesn't matter who wins as long as it's not Labor. Not sure that's a winning strategy for them either. I think that, you know, I feel it, David, there's a lot of people feeling pressure and that's why what we're doing as a government is so squarely focused on relieving some of that pressure through higher wages, lower taxes and better services, greater investment in Medicare, free TAFE, making sure that people can afford a home of their own, helping, you know, well over a quarter of a million people into their first home through the 5% deposit scheme. These are the things that will make a difference.
SPEERS: Yeah, but it's clearly not helping on the ground at the moment. We know One Nation have focused on Anthony Albanese a great deal, fire the liar and all of that. Is he hurting Labor's chances at all do you think?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: This is a state election run on state issues and you know, I think they're the predominant issues. However, it is important that all of us have a good look at the results here and think about what more we need to do to communicate the fact that the Labor Party is the only party focused on real delivery to take pressure off ordinary Australians. Like you talk about One Nation, you get three One Nation members or senators in a room they can't even work out, they've got three different immigration policies. So, that is their main thing and I believe Barnaby Joyce was on TV already this morning with a new position on immigration.
SPEERS: So, we're still waiting for Labor's position on some of these migration matters too to be fair.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, actually, to be fair, David, we've got a permanent migration target of 185,000 every year. Our net overseas target is very clear as well.
SPEERS: Just not how you get there.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It's under 250,000 this year and going down to 225,000 next year and the following year. I mean, that's pretty clear.
SPEERS: Okay, but we still don’t-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Ask One Nation what their numbers are. They can't tell you.
SPEERS: We won't go into all of that now, but we do thank you for joining us this morning. I know some difficult issues, but we thank you for talking to them about us. Tanya Plibersek, thank you.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No worries, David.