E&OE TRANSCRIPT
HAMISH MACDONALD: The Minister for Social Services is Tanya Plibersek, the Member for Sydney in the Federal Parliament as well. Good morning to you, Tanya. You're listening into that conversation. Your reaction, please?
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, thanks very much, Hamish. And first of all, I have to say, obviously I can't comment on this individual tragedy on the Northern Beaches. But look, I agree with everything that Chanel said. In general terms, this is something I've spoken to you about before. I am super concerned about the explosion of sexual violence we've seen where both the victim and the perpetrator are under the age of 18. I'm terrified by the statistic that almost 60% of young people have experienced choking during a sexual encounter. Most of them are getting it from pornography. About 60% of them say they've been influenced by pornography. About 30% say they've been influenced by social media and around another 30% say they've been influenced by friends. I know that doesn't add to 100%. I mean, people are getting more than one influence. It is, it is devastating because we have made progress in some areas of family and domestic violence. We've seen numbers improve. The area where we've seen the numbers go backwards, the worst is in this under 18 victim and perpetrator area. And unless we get a hold of this now, we're going to undo all of the hard work the generations of people have been doing to reduce family, domestic and sexual violence in this country.
MACDONALD: I guess we're all aware of the attempts that governments have made, your government is making to rein in the influence of tech in young people's lives. We can see the issues. I think any parent in Sydney listening this morning will know the challenges with the implementation of the under 16 social media ban. I sort of don't want to get into the weeds of that, but I'm interested in what you think is the responsibility of the, of the tech platforms of the, you know, Chanel Contos there saying the porn tech companies have blood on their hands right now. Like, where are they? Why can't we as a nation hold them responsible? Where are the bosses of these tech companies? Why won't they turn up and answer questions? Why won't they cooperate with the implementation of laws that you, as a sovereign government, are attempting to put in place to protect young people?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I 100% agree. We've got the eSafety Commissioner who's actually taking legal action against some of the tech companies now because they're not doing what we have legislated that they must do. But you see action in the United States where big tech companies have been held to account for the damage that they're doing to children. It is so deeply irresponsible that these companies know that they are doing harm to a generation of people and they just don't care because it's making them extra money. Driving people into conflict and misogyny online is making them a few extra bucks, so they're prepared to do it. We're introducing digital duty of care legislation that will make it easier to hold the tech companies to account. But the, the, I think irresponsible is the kindest description of the behaviour of some of these companies.
MACDONALD: I realise, you know, the digital duty of care clearly is, is an important thing, but it is about, in a sense, responding in the aftermath. Like, I know how, I think I have some sense of how passionately you feel about these issues. Like, is there, I know you're, you're a senior government Minister, you're sitting in cabinet, you've got to do everything through process and you know, the tech companies have big influence and all the rest of it. But is, is there a part of you that wants to go nuclear on this lot and say, look, if you don't comply, we're going to go nuclear, we're going to switch you off?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know what, as a mother, you're talking about, as a cabinet Minister, all these barriers in the way, as a mother, I feel like action in this area is absolutely vital and long overdue. And the worst part of it is the companies know what they're doing. This is not an accidental, an accidental outcome of the way they operate. They know that they are doing harm. They are driving division in our community on purpose because it makes them more money. And the algorithms, as Chanel said, you take any average boy, he looks up stuff about cars and soccer and the next minute he's being fed violent misogynistic content literally within minutes. You know, 26 minutes is the average amount of time that it takes the algorithm to send a teenage boy a misogynistic content online. They know that they're doing it. And the real world consequences of that are devastating for all of us. Teachers will tell you in their classrooms that boys are repeating the sort of misogynistic language that influencers like the Tate brothers are using. They're saying it to teachers, they're saying it to other girls. That's the tip of the iceberg of the way that this is changing the behaviour of our young people. And the other thing I want to say is boys are being harmed by this. Girls are actually being taught to behave in particular ways. As Chanel said as well, they're being fed scripts that if they're not interested in this stuff, if they're not willing to act out what boys are seeing in pornography, that there's something wrong with them, that they're frigid. This is deliberate, it's pernicious. And the best antidote right now is for parents to be having very direct conversations with their young people, other trusted adults-
MACDONALD: Like, being explicit about this stuff.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You have to be-
MACDONALD: Like, I think a lot of people find it really uncomfortable to think-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, it’s embarrassing.
MACDONALD: I'm going to talk to my, you know, 12, 13, 14 year old daughter about strangulation in sex.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah. So, I've got three kids. The youngest is just about to turn 16. He hates it when I talk to him about sex and consent. It's embarrassing. I get that he's embarrassed. You have to have the conversations, not just once, you have to have them again and again. You have to use every opportunity. This is true of parents, it's true of schools. Kids don't get the message the first time you tell them. It's not like one embarrassing conversation, it is, oh, my God, Mum's being embarrassing again. That's the way you get through to them. And I have to say also, Hamish, kids learn from the way we behave more than what we say to them. If you've got Mum and Dad talking to each other respectfully and sharing decision making and modelling equality, you're much more likely to pass those values on to kids.
MACDONALD: Tanya Plibersek, thanks for your time this morning.