E&OE TRANSCRIPT
ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live is the Social Services Minister, Tanya Plibersek. Tanya Plibersek, good to see you on the show again. Thanks for joining us.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Great to be with you.
CLENNELL: I wanted to start by running what you had to say yesterday in your regular Sunrise spot on the declining house prices we are seeing and what it means for first home buyers.
[excerpt plays]
CLENNELL: I mean, really, Tanya Plibersek, the best time ever to be a first home buyer?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, absolutely. The first. The 5% deposit program has helped, as I said, about 260,000 households into a home of their own Andrew. And can I tell you, I regularly do street stalls around my electorate, and the thing that was being raised with me most frequently at every street stall by people my age and older was we've done OK out of the housing market. We are really worried about our kids and our grandkids. Every single Saturday that I was out there talking to my constituents it was raised with me again and again. I think it's so important that we keep our promise to this generation of Australians that they can hope to buy a home of their own, just as their parents and grandparents did. It's been so hard to pay the rent and save a deposit--
CLENNELL: Yeah, it has.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Particularly when that deposit was expected to be 20% of the value of a home--
CLENNELL: Yeah, I get the 5% part, okay--
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So we’re helping people into that.
CLENNELL: But in our time it was 10%, as you well know, as you might recall, perhaps when you and I bought. Might also point out, the median house price in Sydney is 1.6 to 1.8, in Brisbane it's 1.21, in Adelaide, it's 1.1, in Melbourne it's 1.06, and in Perth it's more than a million. Interest rates are up. Isn't it fair to say it’s actually almost never been harder, even with investors taken out of the market, to be a first home buyer.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I shouldn't have made it sound quite as easy as I did, Andrew, because house prices are still very high, as you point out. But we are doing everything we can as a government to make sure that people can get into home of their own with that 5% deposit that we see more homes built. We know that supply is a big part of the solution here. We want to see more of those homes available for rent as well. We're investing in community housing and public housing and in affordable rental. We have to address that whole continuum across the housing market. But we really do want this generation of young Australians to have the same opportunities that you and I did, and particularly our parents did, to get a home of their own. My dad was a plumber, he worked for Qantas, my mum stayed home and looked after us beautifully. On one income, they were able to afford a home of their own. I think that would be really hard for this generation. We want to make it--
CLENNELL: You can say that again.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: A little bit easier for an ordinary person, an ordinary person with an ordinary job to afford an ordinary home. Every Australian that works hard and saves should be able to hope for that. That’s what we’re trying to do as a government.
CLENNELL: Hasn't the horse bolted?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I understand why people would say it's still hard and I still hear that from a lot of young people, including the ones sitting around my dinner table at night, that they're still worried about whether they'll be able to afford a home of their own. But that is why we are working so hard as a government with policies like our 5% deposit policy, like the home saver accounts as well. And it's why we're working so hard to see those construction rates improve too.
CLENNELL: How low would you like to see prices drop?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I don't necessarily want to see prices drop, Andrew. I want to see them grow in a way that is sustainable along with wages. I mean, the problem has been house prices have been growing multiple times faster than wages have been growing. So, I think something in a bit more balance, where if you're saving a deposit, you're not seeing that goal of home ownership get further and further away month after month. I think, I think that's a nice balance.
CLENNELL: What do you think of this argument, the 5% scheme means if you, I mean in your area of Sydney, we've seen prices drop 10% or roughly around where your seat is. They're likely to probably drop further if we get a rate rise. So, what about this argument, you know, some people, if they have to sell in a year or two, they're going to be in negative equity, they're going to go under. Is that just a consequence of this sort of policy?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: We saw prices drop between 2017 and 2019. We saw prices drop when interest rates started to go up in 2022. People are talking about price drops now. Prices have dropped back to where they were in March this year. I really think that what we will continue to see long term is what the Treasury advice tells us. Housing prices will continue to grow. I hope they continue to grow a bit more moderately than they have been in recent years because the runaway price increases we've seen have locked a generation of young Australians out of home ownership. And we know that home ownership is really important for families budgets, it really helps, particularly when you're in your retirement years, if you're in a home of your own. But it's also really important for our social compact. Honestly, in Australia, if you work hard and you save hard, you should be able to afford an ordinary home. It's a really foundational part of our social contract with people and we're keeping that promise to young Australians. If they work hard and they save, they'll be able to afford a home of their own.
CLENNELL: I think that's slightly contentious, but we could debate that all day. I have to ask about this so called widow's tax, where if you change title on an inheritance, capital gains property or sell it, you could cop CGT and Jim Chalmers says he's going to fix this with legislation. There are calls from David Pocock to legislate the loophole as soon as possible. What's your latest information on how quickly the government's going to move on that?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, that's really a question for the Treasurer, but he has been very clear that we know it's a problem and we're going to fix it. And when you've got big tax changes, it's very common to see legislation come through in multiple tranches and we obviously want to fix it as quickly as possible.
CLENNELL: You were in Parliament when Pauline Hanson was first elected, or in fact you were elected at the same time. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you agree that she's improved as a politician? And what are your urgings to your Cabinet colleagues on how to handle the threat of One Nation?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I can't say the ideas have improved, Andrew, that's for sure. She's someone that I disagree with pretty fundamentally and particularly when she says that Australian workers are lazy, they're paid too much and they should be easier to sack. Or when she says that employers shouldn't add to people's paid parental leave. Or when she says that victims of domestic violence make it up and they shouldn't be believed. I certainly don't agree with her policies. They haven't improved over the years, not at all. And another thing I'd say is we have a choice as a country whether we work together for a better future for this nation. We all invest our time, our energy, our effort into laying out a positive future, a positive vision for this nation. I don't get that from Pauline Hanson. I get her scapegoating and blaming and complaining and calling Australians lazy and saying that they're paid too much. I don't get, I don't get a beautiful view vision for a united country in the future. I don't get that from her at all.
CLENNELL: What's your reaction to these claims in a Senate committee last couple of days about inducements offered by big gambling company, should I say, everything from, I mean, very large bonus bets, to escorts, to drugs, even obviously under parliamentary privilege, this is said. What's been your reaction to those revelations?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I think those reports are disgusting, they're very disturbing and I know Luke Bateman gave evidence. I think it was really courageous of him to talk about his gambling addiction. I've spoken to Luke about that in person, personally, the two of us as well. He's an incredible role model. He's a great Australian and the fact that he's prepared to get up and share very personal information like that is very courageous. I think if companies are doing that, particularly the illegal stuff, the idea that they're offering drugs to people is very disturbing indeed. What I would say as well, Andrew, is that the reason that these things are being discussed in public is because there's an inquiry into legislation to tighten up the rules around gambling. We want to see those rules tightened, particularly around advertising, particularly around advertising that might be seen by children. And one of the things that we would love to see as part of the package of legislation that's going forward, I'm doubling funding for financial counselling for harmful gambling. But we also want to see people make more use of BetStop, the self-exclusion register, where you can make sure that those sorts of inducements that Luke was talking about aren't sent to you.
CLENNELL: Just briefly, is there any action you can take in relation to his allegations? Would you refer any of that to, say, the Federal police? Is there anything the government can do about looking into that?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I'm not sure about that. I would have to take advice on whether there are crimes. I mean, obviously, obviously offering people cocaine, having the cocaine in the first place is illegal and offering it to other people is certainly illegal. So, I don't know whether the police will go on to investigate those things that, where the law has clearly been broken. But one of the things that we can do on a broader basis on a population basis is making sure that people know that that BetStop is available and that they can register to make sure that they're not sent gambling advertising or promotions.
CLENNELL: Look in the corner of the screen, you can't see it, we’re seeing Alan Jones leave the court. He's someone that you and your husband have known reasonably well over time. I just wanted to ask you for a reaction to him facing court, some of the allegations at the moment. Whilst I urge you to exercise caution as well, I just wondered what you thought personally, having known him for a time, that all this is before the courts.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, Andrew, you've hit the nail on the head. When things are before the courts, I simply don't comment.
CLENNELL: And you were friends with Peta Murphy, who authored this report on gambling which the government has adopted some measures, but not many others. Many of which are in your portfolio. What do you think she would have made about what has been implemented by the government when it comes to gambling so far?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, Peta Murphy was a very good friend of mine and I miss her a great deal and she did a lot of good work with this inquiry. I think she would be, she would know that every step forward is important to acknowledge. And the reason that there's an inquiry right now is because there's legislation before the parliament that restricts advertising. Like can't show it between 6 in the morning and 8:30 at night. It's limited in other hours. You can't advertise on people's jersey or sporting fields. There's a whole range of other measures that we're trying to legislate right now. I think she would be urging the Parliament to pass this legislation right now. And if people want to campaign for more down the track, that is absolutely their right. But there's no reason to delay these next steps. We've already taken steps in the past. I went through some of those a minute ago.
CLENNELL: Yeah, you did.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: But there’s no reason to delay these next steps.
CLENNELL: I'm nearly out of time. But I just wonder, did you argue internally for greater change here?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know, I never discuss Cabinet conversations, Andrew.
CLENNELL: Tanya Plibersek, thanks for your time.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Pleasure to be with you.