E&OE TRANSCRIPT
NATALIE BARR, HOST: Well, today marks one year since Hamas attacked Israel, killing more than 1000 people and beginning what's become a major conflict in the Middle east region. Back home, pro Palestine protesters rallied on streets across this country in what were largely peaceful demonstrations, with few arrests made by police. Action is, however, set to continue today on the anniversary of the initial attack, with vigils planned in Sydney and in Melbourne for their take, let's bring in NDIS Minister Bill Shorten and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to both of you. Bill, we'll start with you. Protesters in Sydney led a chant of Labor party blood on your hands. What is your response to those comments?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS, AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: The people with blood on their hands are Hamas. It's a year's anniversary since terrorists invaded Israel, killed over 1200 people, committed unspeakable crimes, stole 250 hostages. I can see why people feel very strongly, be they of Palestinian heritage, Jewish heritage, Lebanese, or just generally feel very strongly against civilian deaths. But today is a year since Hamas crossed the borders. So, they're the people with blood on their hands.
BARR: They say that we're under a terrorist regime. I think I heard someone shout. And their case is that there are tens of thousands more people who've died in Gaza since then and your government is not speaking out enough for them. What do you say?
SHORTEN: I'd say they're wrong. Our government has spoken out on behalf of all the civilians caught up in this conflict. But what I can't do is ignore the facts behind the violence. The reality is that Iran has been manipulating terrorist groups right through an arc in the Middle East. Israel does have the right to live behind safe borders. We do support a two state solution. We have provided aid and civilian support. It's a dreadful conflict. But the argument that some of the radical protesters put, that somehow it's the fault of the Australian government or that somehow we live in a terrorist regime in Australia doesn't wash. It's just rubbish.
BARR: Barnaby, critics have said the Albanese Government stands accused of abandoning Israel at its darkest hour. What do you think?
BARNABY JOYCE, NATIONALS MP: I think that I don't want to. Inflame the situation. I think that it's really important as best we can. We clearly understand exactly what Bill said. You just showed up clip there and it had a lady being abducted and a smiley emoji from Hamas. I think that encapsulates the tenor of how this came about. Israel was invaded and when you invade a country, when a terrorist organisation invades a country, you start a war. They started a war. Now, if they want to stop the war, if Hamas or Hezbollah want to stop the war, remember, Hezbollah is also a terrorist organisation. There's a way to do it. You surrender. That's how you stop wars. You surrender and you release the hostages and the war stops. This idea. Well, if we protest here, we protest there and scream at people that somehow people will relent and give in to a terrorist organisation is obviously completely unfounded.
BARR: Yes.
JOYCE: If someone invaded Australia, if a terrorist organisation invaded Australia, what would you expect the Australian Defence Force to do? Would you say, I will just, we'll negotiate with this terrorist group? Now, you say, I'd go out there and win and then defeat them, then we're safe. And that's. That's what's happening here. I would say the contemptible terrorist organisation, by reason of their actions. Absolutely contemptible. They're raping people, they're killing. Killing people. They're killing babies, raping people. They've got people locked up and starving to death in holes and you're saying, I want to negotiate with them. Where are you going to start your negotiation with these people, Bill?
BARR: Let's talk about the protests that have been going on for many, many months now. In NSW, there's a permit system that allows police to oppose a protest. Victoria's premier, Jacinta Allan, is resisting calls for a similar system. Should Victoria have a permit system?
SHORTEN: Permit systems are the preserve. To have them or not are the preserve of the states. But I think it is working well in NSW, and perhaps it is time for Victoria to consider a permit system. How the permit system works is it doesn't stop people protesting, but the purpose of it's looked at the circumstances, how it's done is taken before a Supreme Court, an independent body. The police in NSW use this power sparingly. I don't necessarily think it should apply to industrial relations, but for some of these protests we've seen week in, week out, I do think that having a permit system would at least straighten it up. The great cities of the world have it. American cities, London, they still have protests there, but perhaps it is time to reconsider. And I've been read what the secretary of the police association, Wayne Gatt, said in Victoria, and he thought that there's probably some merit in considering this idea, and I think there probably is.
BARR: Bill, is it appropriate for the Palestinians protesters to be doing this on the eve and, in fact, the day of October 7?
SHORTEN: Yeah, I think it's tasteless, to be honest. I don't. I don't agree. Listen, it's not as if they haven't had a fair run at protesting. I mean, you can't go to parts of Melbourne without tripping over a protest. I mean, you know, that's Melbourne for you. People turn up at the opening of an envelope. But the point about it is, seriously, a year ago on the 7 October, a whole lot of unprovoked violence just was writ large across southern Israel. I don't understand people who think that somehow that their pain is morally superior to someone else's. And that's really what some of the protesters are saying. And how on earth do you persuade people of your cause by exacerbating the pain of others? It's a way of thinking. I don't comprehend.
BARR: It was unprovoked violence. It was one of the worst atrocities the world has ever seen. Barnaby, should they be doing it on this day?
JOYCE: Yeah. One of the guys leading this protest, me reading in the paper, Josh Lee's now, neither Josh nor Lee sounds like a Palestinian name. And I had a look at him. He doesn't look very Palestinian to me. So, I think what we are getting amongst this is a lot of adjunct provocateurs. Well, maybe he's not. Maybe I'm full. But I. I think joining this is a lot of people who just want to protest for protest sake. They. It is ridiculous. Like, you know, people saying in the gay community, support, you know, supporting issues in Palestine or supporting Hamas, do they understand exactly what happens to people in the gay community under Hamas? Do they comprehend exactly what they're doing? And therefore, you pose the question, what is really behind this? An understanding of the Palestinian situation, a real empathy. I'm absolutely certain there are people with that. Not a shadow of a doubt. I not for one second condoned them doing it on a day of this carnage that was inflicted by a terrorist group of musk. But there are a lot of other people in there who are hangers on, and for them, that's completely contemptible.
BARR: Okay, we thank you both. We'll see you next week.