E&OE transcript
HOST, ELLEN FANNING: "Your body, my choice". That is a famous war cry from the Manosphere, a toxic message directed at our young men online, that says men and boys should dominate women who should submit. Listen again, "Your body, my choice". You can hear the threat in that, can't you? Women reduced to sex objects, denying their agency, framing them as inferior or manipulative, women described as vermin and leeches; so many people worried about their young men being exposed to these ideas.
Have you watched the latest Netflix blockbuster investigation by Louis Theroux, it's called "Inside the Manosphere", here's the trailer.
[Excerpt]
SPEAKER: Do you consider yourself a misogynist?
SPEAKER: I love women and actually understand them?
SPEAKER: Do you think you know better than they do?
SPEAKER: They want a guy that can lead them and dominate them.
SPEAKER: Have you got anything to say for The Live, Theroux?
SPEAKER: Not really.
SPEAKER: Do you think Satanists are running the world?
SPEAKER: Absolutely.
SPEAKER: They talk about misinformation on the Internet. This is what they're talking about.
SPEAKER: I'm raw, I'm not a puppet I'm not controlled, I don't do this bullshit editing that you guys do, 'cause I'm real.
SPEAKER: Are you getting triggered?
[End of Excerpt]
ELLEN FANNING: Makes you worry, doesn't it, what young men are exposed to; parents worry about it, school leaders struggle to sort of counter that messaging that pushes young men towards these rigid ideas about masculinity.
Can the Federal Government really hope to get through? Ged Kearney is Assistant Minister for the Prevention of Family Violence. She's with you now. Ged, you've teamed up with the wonderful Dan Repacholi. Now he's two metres high, he's red‑bearded, he looks like a Viking, he's a former Olympic shooter, just the sort of fellow to have hard talks with men and boys to support their health and wellbeing. How did you get dragged into this?
ASSISTANT MINISTER GED KEARNEY: That's true, Dan Repacholi is wonderful, and I'm really proud to be working with him, 'cause he's the Special Envoy for men's health, but I'm the Assistant Minister for the Prevention of Family and Domestic Violence, and our Government has committed to working to prevent family and domestic violence within a generation, and a keep part of that agenda, of course, is working with men, and again some of those influences that you opened this chat with.
And so, Dan, who's very interested in men's health, and I'm very interested in healthy ‑ helping men as well, because that's a good way to combat violence, and so we are teaming up, Dan and I, the long and the short of it, you could say.
And, you know, Dan really does have a very wonderful, healthy, natural way of talking to men, and I come ‑ and he's very interested in things like men being overrepresented in our suicide statistics, for example; 75 per cent of all suicides are men, and I'm very interested in healthy attitudes and combating, as Dan is too, we both are very interested in combating those negative influences.
So, I guess, you know, you said, "How are we going to do this, Ellen?" You know, you mentioned the Louis Theroux documentary, which I'm sure a number of your listeners have watched, and you played some things from that.
What really struck me about that program was the two young men who became strong disciples of those so‑called influencers. You know, those men were very vulnerable, they, you know, mentally they weren't terribly well, they were unemployed, I think they were homeless. Like these guys, these manfluencers, they prey on very vulnerable young men, and what we do know is that data and trends are showing that modern societal pressures are having adverse impacts, young men are feeling isolated, they're low in self‑esteem, they're struggling with relationships, not all young men, but the young men that are, you know, being influenced by these programs.
And so our job is to really promote factors that support men's health and connection, particularly young boys. They're starting with young men here, this is really where we've got to really focus, I think, encourage help‑seeking behaviour as normal and not a weakness, I think that's really important so that they don't look to these other people for support, counter those harmful ideologies, and really promote what is, you know, what is positive manhood, what does it mean to be a man in 2026.
ELLEN FANNING: What I like about how you're framing that, and certainly how Dan Repacholi is framing that, and again this giant of an MP ‑ literally ‑ from coal country ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Yep.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ who can talk to men, there's not a finger wagging kind of war on men ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: No.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ feeling about it that says ‑ like when you talk about toxic masculinity, as the mother of two young men, it's toxic behaviour, it's not a toxic person.
GED KEARNEY: No.
ELLEN FANNING: It's the behaviour, and I think so many times it's been framed as "Thou shalt not, you're dangerous, you've got to temper those dangerous instincts", rather than saying, "This is not what brings you happiness, it's a way to be healthy, it's a way to be supported, it's a way to live a good life to make yourself happy and not be vulnerable yourself". And that seems to be how what you and Dan are doing ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Yep.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ is flipping ‑ flipping the engagement.
GED KEARNEY: That's what we're trying to do, absolutely, that's what we're trying to do, and dealing with those issues that, you know, every young teenage boy ‑ you've got sons, I've got a son ‑ they're all going to go through those periods of insecurity and worry, and we've got to get them at that stage with really good programs and interventions that say, "Look, this is normal how you're feeling now, come and talk to us, talk about it, open up about it, it's not a weakness to be vulnerable or to ask for help".
And I think help seeking is going to be a really important part of this, making that absolutely normal, and then giving them a great alternative to manhood, having good role models, like Dan, you know, having great role models out there who are fit and healthy and look well, but are also giving really good, positive societal and community‑based messaging.
ELLEN FANNING: How vulnerable do you think our young people are, young men are, because all the time people like me with a microphone in front of them go, "Beware, beware, they're looking at porn and developing very unhealthy ways of thinking about healthy sexual relationships let alone attitudes to women". You've done some research, the Government's done some research.
GED KEARNEY: Yes.
ELLEN FANNING: How much of an issue is this in Australia? Forget about the United States, that looks pretty bad over there.
GED KEARNEY: M'mm. Well, we are concerned in some areas, particularly in adolescent boys, you know, 63 per cent of boys and girls think that teenage boys need to be strong and manly at all times and not show emotions, you know, that's the type of statistic that we can work with, and I think that we really need to counter and say, "No, it's okay to be vulnerable and to seek help".
ELLEN FANNING: Where does that come from, Ged, because it's not possible to watch a soppy movie with a male adult member of my family without, you know, a woman standing up and stomping off to the bathroom saying, "Oh, for heaven's sake, I'll get you some tissues", right, so how do they get to that?
GED KEARNEY: You've raised very good boys, I think. Look, this is a long‑standing societal norm, you know, we teach little boys from day one to be strong, you know, "Don't cry, get up, get up", when they fall over. I mean I think we're getting much better, I think, you know, there's a much higher awareness about allowing boys to show emotion.
I look at my sons‑in‑law who are in their 30s, and they're beautiful dads, you know, absolutely gorgeous dads, and really allow their sons to open up. But we do know that only 37 per cent of boys will actively seek mental health support, whereas girls are much more likely, 62 per cent of girls will actually seek mental health support, so it's about saying to little boys, we really have to change that ‑ changing culture's so hard, Ellen, but we really do have to change culture, and look, you're right, movies, popular, you know, what they see ‑ they can't be what they can't see, you know, and if they can see their heros and their role models opening up and being sensitive, then that will help as part of it, but really it's about running really effective programs in schools, in sporting clubs, in communities with role models they trust and admire telling them, you know, "This is really what it means to be a good man and a healthy man.
ELLEN FANNING: You're listening to Ged Kearney, she is the assistant ‑ I've lost your thing ‑ can you tell them what you are.
GED KEARNEY: I might ‑‑
ELLEN FANNING: I've got it. Assistant Minister for the Prevention of Family Violence, which is where I want to take you, Ged, because, you know, for 20 or so years now the emphasis has been, if we could just get this message out about respectful relationships it would turn around the figures on domestic and family violence.
GED KEARNEY: M'mm.
ELLEN FANNING: And if that was the working hypothesis, that has not worked.
GED KEARNEY: Yes. Well, there's no ‑ I think what we've come to realise, gender equality and respectful relationships and learning about consent, that is all an important part of the response. There's no one silver bullet. But what we've come to realise, I think ‑ well, for some of us it's a more recent realisation, is that we need to really start working with young men and boys, and men need to be part of the conversation, and I think this is where we're heading now in the prevention space, and it's where the Government certainly is wanting to focus attention, not taking anything away, of course, from, you know, the gender equality agenda and respect and consent, and all of that, that's still incredibly important, but building young men up, building their resilience, making them confident, lifting them out of isolation and really countering those adverse impacts I think is going to be important for young boys.
But I want to say too that there's a lot of positives. You know, what we do know, for example, is that young boys who have positive relationships with their fathers or father figures are nearly 50 per cent less likely to use intimate partner violence.
So, you know, that's great statistics. So, you know, we need to start working with dads, dad parents of not only young boys, of young girls as well, looking at programs that help men be good dads. You know, we need to look at good, strong role models and how we can get them out there into this Manosphere space.
ELLEN FANNING: Yeah, so it's about celebrating masculinity ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Yeah.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ rather than talking about toxic masculinity to reinforce the sorts of attitudes and behaviours that make young men, all men, happy and reinforce their sense of wellbeing ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Correct.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ than scolding them about what they oughtn't be, or we fear that they innately are and must ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Absolutely.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ you know, must beat out of them in a sense.
GED KEARNEY: Yeah, I mean there's ‑ I was with Ben Vasiliou from The Man Cave today, and he was saying, you know, we can celebrate good things about masculinity and build on that, you know, build on them, add these extra things on, and without bringing anyone down, you know, and I think that's really, really important, particularly for young men who, you know, they're trying to find their way in the world.
So, and you know, there's other things that we know that [indistinct] telling us, men with mild to severe ‑ I mean with moderate to severe depressive symptoms are 62 per cent more likely to use intimate partner violence. Well, goodness me, if we can really address the depression, you know, really get in early and early intervention in that space, encourage men who are feeling depression or experiencing depressive symptoms to go and see a doctor, you know, that would certainly help.
So, you know, this is what Dan and I really want to do. There's a lot of good work being done right around the country. We're going to travel around, we're going to talk to people, we want to raise a conversation, have great people like yourself who really get it, you really get it, Ellen, I can hear it in your questions and your comments, having that conversation, and you know, bringing it out of the dash corners and making sure that people know there are answers. Dan and I want to know where Governments can best put our policy responses, and perhaps, you know, really help us achieve something here.
ELLEN FANNING: Good on you, Ged. On the text line, "Pornography and violence, sexualisation of women, has a lot to answer for. As a society we need to start as early as possible to educate children about its dangers".
GED KEARNEY: Yes.
ELLEN FANNING: That's Sean at Bald Hills. Ben listening, "Interesting the men are engaging with this conversation. The current school education system fails boys, the curriculum and the discipline methodologies are not designed for boys".
I wonder whether or not that doesn't reflect that statistic you were giving me before that a lot of young boys and young girls think that a real man has to be strong and manly, in other words, it's peer pressure, peer pressure which is kind of like something out of the 1950s that is being imposed on a generation of young men.
GED KEARNEY: Definitely. And peer pressure is really important, because I've been reading and learning a lot about the research in this space recently, and young men want to be accepted by their peers, so they engage in behaviour that they think their peers will applaud and ‑‑
ELLEN FANNING: And is that where we get this Looksmaxxing. I know the Afternoons team with Kat Feeney are looking at this, and this seems to be where young men take all these steroids in order to try and look like Arnold Schwarzenegger without the work.
GED KEARNEY: Yeah.
ELLEN FANNING: And make themselves sick by putting so many chemicals in them.
GED KEARNEY: Yes, and peptides, they're injecting peptides and they're breaking bones, all sorts of terrible things. Yes, you're right, this is a really awful development.
But what we do know is they think they're doing it because they will be rewarded by their peers, but the research shows that the peers don't want to do it either, the peers think they want to do it, the boys think the others want to do it.
ELLEN FANNING: Oh, it's like binge drinking, the same statistic, "I'm doing it because I think everyone wants to do it" ‑‑
GED KEARNEY: Correct.
ELLEN FANNING: ‑‑ but in fact when you take us individually and say, "Do you want to do this?" "No, vomiting in the gutter's not a lot of fun".
GED KEARNEY: Yes.
ELLEN FANNING: Put your trade union cap on, former leading trade unionist, Ged Kearney with you, she's now going around the country having these conversations about how to prevent domestic and family violence teamed up with the Federal Government's Special Envoy for Men, Dan Repacholi, who is a former Olympic shooter, the ALP MP for Hunter, Ged herself, the Assistant Minister for the Prevention of Family Violence.
I'm getting a reminder on the text line from Sophie. We did some work a few weeks ago, Ged, on this statistic NEET, young people, 15 to 24, not in education employment and training, NEET, so they're not doing anything, they're not volunteering, they're not working; surely that leads to a lack of confidence.
Sophie says, "I reckon a lot of these young men may be on the Internet influenced by this, with time on their hands, they might feel better by abusing women online."
Do you have to actually look at the fundamentals of what life is offering young people?
GED KEARNEY: Most definitely. I mean all of those social determinants play into this. And it's funny Sophie should raise that, because I was just met with a group of Headspace and they were telling us that one of the most effective things they do for these young men is get them a job, and so they get them into employment, so they have these outreach programs where they're, you know, trying to go out into schools and into community spaces where they know young people are.
Headspace, of course, is the Government mental service for adolescents, for young people, and they're really starting an outreach program, they are doing full sort of wrap‑around services. They get them in, they teach them to cook for themselves, you know, they talk about sport, getting healthy, they help them get a job. So, you know, your caller in there, Sophie, I think it was, is absolutely spot on. I mean that's a huge part of it.
ELLEN FANNING: Yeah. Wonderful to talk to you Ged.
GED KEARNEY: Yep, you too, Ellen.