E&OE TRANSCRIPT
HOST, PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let's bring in my political panel for today. Ged Kearney is the Assistant Minister for Social Services. Maria Kovacic is a Liberal Senator and the Shadow Assistant Minister to the Leader of the Opposition. And they both join me in the studio. Welcome to both of you.
GED KEARNEY, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES AND THE PREVENTION OF FAMILY VIOLENCE: Hello, Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, let's begin on this Gaza question. The Government has signed this statement with many other nations, but in fact the Greens are saying they're just words, you need to go further and sanction Israel, that you're not going far enough. What's your response to that, Ged?
KEARNEY: Well, I think a lot of Australians are quite rightly distressed at what they're seeing happening in Gaza at the moment. We're seeing people starving, we're seeing many people killed, people standing in line waiting for aid, being attacked. So, I think, as Tony Burke said this morning, the statement is quite, is the strongest statement made to date by an Australian government. It has positioned ourselves with 25, 26 other countries. It's very strong and it goes to other things as well as that. It calls, naturally calls for a ceasefire and the release of the hostages, but it talks about corralling Palestinians, which is, you know, against international law, displacing people from their own country. It goes to the occupied territories and saying that that needs to stop as well. It is a very wide ranging letter. I think it's a very strong letter and it's giving a stronger statement yet that we need a ceasefire and we need it now.
KARVELAS: Maria, your colleague Jonathan Duniam, who's in the Shadow Cabinet, has said that signing the statement was a rather alarming move by the Government. As Ged Kearney just mentioned, we are in a group of 25 countries. Are you alarmed by this?
MARIA KOVACIC, LIBERAL SENATOR AND THE SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: We want to see an end to the conflict in Gaza. I think all Australians want that and I think everybody globally wants to see that. I don't think a letter is going to solve the problem that we have here. This conflict has deep-rooted history. I think the thing we need to understand that one of the things that could end this conflict in its current form very, very quickly would be the return of the hostages. Hamas refuses to do that.
KARVELAS: That was in the statement though. And right now we're seeing people trying to get aid, dying in large numbers. Surely that's unacceptable.
KOVACIC: We don't want to see that. Nobody wants to see that. But the reality is, you need to see this in its entirety, which is the reality of the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, that they are impacting the resolution of this in a meaningful way because they refused to return the hostages that began on the October 7th terrorist attack.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is it acceptable, though, that children become the victims of that standoff?
KOVACIC: It's not. Unfortunately, this is what we have been seeing for such a long time. In the same way that it was not acceptable for, you know, Hamas terrorists to enter the homes that they did in Israel and rape and pillage and put on display the bodies of young women. This fundamentally is wrong. It should be abhorrent to all of us.
KEARNEY:I think what the letter clearly states is that it's very difficult to negotiate releasing of hostages when the attack on the people continue, and that if we do want peace and if we do want negotiations, then a ceasefire is the only way through, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Ok, I want to change the topic and talk about this new Parliament. Sam Mostyn suggests that you all should show less anger. I heard the word. There's an angry tone. She wants less of that. She wants more respectful debate. Do you sign up to that, both of you?
KOVACIC: Yes. And she spoke about care as well, that we have to care for ourselves and for others. And I think that's an important element. I think one of the challenges in political discourse that we've seen, not only in Australia but globally, is that it's that, you know, an attack style of politics. I think we need to have constructive and respectful debate. And the way that, you know, Sussan Ley has spoken about, you know, constructive where we can be, critical where we must, and that's an important way forward for the entire Parliament, in my view.
KEARNEY:I would agree with that, Maria. I think that…
KARVELAS: Oh this is getting a bit cuddly!
KEARNEY: Oh, it is a bit, isn't it? Sorry.
KARVELAS: The opening of the Parliament, we're in serious agreement. So, you're all going to be consistently nice to each other.
KEARNEY: Well, look, you know, I think the Leader of the Opposition's speech this morning was, you know, indicative of a new sort of position on Welcome to Country and reconciliation. She spoke about reconciliation. I think that was really welcome. I think we're working constructively on the childcare issues. I think early signs are that, you know, that we can work together, we can be constructive.
KARVELAS: Ok.
KOVACIC: And I think one point to that. I don't have to agree with someone to be respectful towards them, but I do have to give them the opportunity to speak and put their position forward in a manner that is fair. And reasonable.
KARVELAS: That's a powerful point. In terms of the conflict that we might see, I think it was Barnaby Joyce just yesterday suggesting that net zero should be the line in the sand where you go into battle with Labor. Ged Kearney looks pained by that. But I know some of your colleagues relish that because you feel like you're on the winning side of that debate. So, how does it land on you having a fight over net zero?
KOVACIC: Well, I think my position is very clear. I believe...
KARVELAS: So, when you hear him say that that's the kind of way to get out of this, does it fill you with despair?
KOVACIC: Well, I don't agree with it, so I don't agree at all. I believe our way forward is to ensure that we have two key pillars to our energy policy, which is that we are part of a global effort. And I've said this before, to reduce the emissions, but also to ensure that we have a stable and efficient and cheap is not the right word, but, you know, affordable energy grid. Right. That's what we need to do. And one thing I would say is if we have an opportunity to reduce pollution, why would we not do that? Why would we do something that would make it harder for our children and for future generations to actually manage the world we hand over to them? That doesn't make any sense to me.
KARVELAS: Well, on a current environmental disaster, algal bloom in South Australia. Your Government won't declare it a national emergency, but the South Australian Premier, Peter Malinauskas, says it certainly is. Why a hold off?
KEARNEY: Well, my understanding is that there are definitions of national emergency.
KARVELAS: Change the definitions! That's what the Greens argue. Well, maybe you need to revisit because it looks like a pretty big disaster.
KEARNEY: Right now, it doesn't Patricia, doesn’t fit that definition. But, you know, we are responding as if it is a very serious issue and we understand that people's livelihoods are at risk. We understand that this is an environmental, serious environmental problem and we are working with the South Australian Government to do the best we can to try to fix that. $14 million. I know I heard you before say drop in the ocean, but it's a significant amount that I think the South Australian Government have welcomed that. It's going to go to help businesses, it's going to go to educate the public, investigate how and why this has happened. You know, I think we are taking this very seriously and we have some of our most senior Cabinet Ministers reside in that good state and so I'm sure you know, to say that we haven't been taking notice, I think is a reflection on them and that's not the case.
KARVELAS: Ok, I want to just talk about a couple of the Bills that are coming before the Parliament this week. We know that the childcare changes are coming before the Parliament and so is the HECS 20% reduction. Now, Jonathan Duniam, the front bencher responsible, indicated that there is perhaps a changed position on your side of politics. But I want you to reflect on, and I asked the same question yesterday for anyone who watches every day, and some people do, to Tim Wilson, whether the language of that is elite, that it's elite to reduce the debts of students, whether you reject that now because that was the language before the last Parliament and it was quite alienating for some people.
KOVACIC: Look, I think the messaging more accurately would have been that there are other students, you know, private colleges, you know, kids going through trades and all the rest that would probably have benefited from it, an opportunity similar to that one. And perhaps we should have looked at something that benefits all young people. And one of the things, as you know, that are really important to me as an example is housing. You know, we should be looking at, you know, how do we make it easier so that there aren't so many cost of living pressures which, let's face it, you know, this, you know, offer by the Government, let's call it, was designed to ease cost of living that they themselves created. Right. But ultimately I would like to see, well, what are we going to do so that young Australians can afford to buy a home? And let's be frank, whether you go to uni or not, whether you're a tradie or you've got a degree as a young person, it's going to be very, very hard for you to buy a home in this.
KARVELAS: But your party says that it's, historically argues that it's the party of small government and aspiration. Isn't it the most aspirational of all things for young people to aspire to go into university and, you know, upward mobility and to change their economic stance? Isn't that at the heart of that principle?
KOVACIC:I think at the heart of that principle is to aspire to do what you want to do.
KARVELAS: That's right, but that's part of it is university for a lot of people.
KOVACIC: So, for one person it might be a trade. For another person it might be uni. For somebody else, it might be a different pathway. And we have to be open to all of that. We shouldn't just be open to supporting and encouraging solely tertiary education. And I think tertiary education is wonderful and it's an important thing. But that isn't the be all and the end all for every Australian, in my view.
KEARNEY: Well, if you listen to the Governor-General's speech today, I think it's quite clear that our agenda is enormous and that it's not the only thing, but it is an important thing. Like when we were knocking on doors and talking about this, it was incredibly popular. People loved it and people who have HECS debts really welcomed it and I think they're looking forward to it. They loved our, you know, Medicare urgent care clinics, they loved the women's health package. They love our housing bill, which we are working tooth and nail, you know, the Federation is making it difficult for the Federal Government to do very much, but we are pouring billions and billions of dollars into making housing more accessible and more affordable. There's a whole suite of things out there that are helping Australians with cost of living and I'm pretty proud of it.
KARVELAS: Ok, tomorrow's the last, the first Question Time of this new Parliament. Gentler, kinder. Is that what I should expect? A gentler, gentle, kind question?
KEARNEY: It's going to be interesting.
KOVACIC: I think it'll be robust but fair.
KEARNEY: Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to it.
KOVACIC: Australians expect us to hold the Government to account, but they want to see it in a way that's reflective of their own expectations.
KARVELAS: I have to ask you something which has been niggling at me.
KEARNEY: Uh oh.
KARVELAS: Something niggles at me, Ged. Something's niggling at me. I've heard some of your colleagues off the record, but I want your reflections on this sort of say, ah, well, the Prime Minister better be careful about how he deals with Sussan Ley. Now, there's lots of ways to hear that if he's sexist to her. Absolutely. But isn't that a bit of a sort of way of treating women like they can't have a debate? Like, shouldn't that be an equal exchange between leaders?
KOVACIC: I think Sussan Ley has shown that she's an outstanding leader and I say, you know, underestimate her at your own peril.
KARVELAS: Good point. Thank you so much to both of you.
KEARNEY: Great pleasure.